As many guys have lamented out there, you ask a woman what they would like and usually you're going to hear that they want among various qualities, a nice guy. Then of course many end up going out with a complete jerk.

I believe the issue here is a matter of clarification. You want a more precise response to "would you go out with a nice guy"? Try saying "Would you go out with a guy who's desperate, unconfident, unassertive and never makes the first move?" I think some very different responses would be heard.

My older sister is a firmly against the notion of "nice guys finish last". However, when we had talked about guys who fit the 'nice guy' definition, even she felt such guys would be highly unattractive. Granted, she said she'd go out with an unconfident guy if he were kind and nice, never asked her bout a guy making the first move or even about assertiveness, but for sure, desperation was a major no-no on her list. She was speaking about this in the context of an LTR, but I think she has a strong point. Pook, the man who wrote "kill your desperation" here, had women saying that a desperate co-worker of theirs was very repelling.

A more precise way to find out if many women truly don't want a nice guy is to see if they turn down even the nice guys who lack the 'nice guy' characteristics. As I stated in another post, when we look at 'nice guy' characteristics, we aren't exactly talking about a nice guy at all anymore. We're talking about a guy with serious personal issues.

I think in essence women do want a nice guy (if they're decent), but simply put, a nice guy with a backbone.

I also think desparation is a loose term and depends on the person. To an AW, desparation is a guy that wants a LTR. To a girl looking for an LTR, the perspective is different, she wants a guy to show interest, but not overly so to the point where it is rediculous.

Also, women want a guy they feel safe around, but at the same time has some excitement to them. The nice guy often lacks the excitement, but is safe. The jerk often lacks the safe aspect, but is exciting.

What's an AW?

Originally posted by tmpgstx
I think in essence women do want a nice guy (if they're decent), but simply put, a nice guy with a backbone.

I also think desparation is a loose term and depends on the person. To an AW, desparation is a guy that wants a LTR. To a girl looking for an LTR, the perspective is different, she wants a guy to show interest, but not overly so to the point where it is rediculous.

Also, women want a guy they feel safe around, but at the same time has some excitement to them. The nice guy often lacks the excitement, but is safe. The jerk often lacks the safe aspect, but is exciting.

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This question is easily addressed once you figure out that men and women aren't talking about the same kind of guy when they use the term "nice guy".

A man's definition of "nice guy" is basically a guy who latches onto the first female who shows them any kind of attention at all and puts them on a pedestal...envisioning them as their "ideal mate". They don't show romantic interest due to lack of confidence and fear. But they pretend to be her "friend". Since women are fully capable of viewing men as friends and not a potential sex partner, she doesn't always realize mr "nice guy" is only being "nice" in some feeble attempt to make her fall for him. He's basically lying and being phony. At some point, he let's the cat out of the bag that he is "in love" with her...which he usually isn't...he's in love with the imaginary romantic partner his twisted little mind has fantasized her as being. Basically...this is a man's "nice guy".

When a woman says "nice guy" she means a MAN who is a nice person to everyone, who treats people with respect, including himself. She is NOT speaking of the asexual guy who builds his entire existance around a fantasy relationship with a girl/woman he pretends to be friends with as part of a devious and often foolish hope that if he's nice to her she will fall in love with him. That's NOT even "nice" behavior...that is about as underhanded and dishonest and sneaky as you can get. The "niceness" isn't even sincere...and comes with strings attached.

Thanks for your good point (about desperation). When my question is asked, instead of the word "desperation", say the following things:

-always giving the women attention.
-calling all the time (and calling immediately once getting the number, immediately returning a call, etc.)
-taking every opportunity to talk to them (and telling everything about yourself)
-always available.
-NEVER willing to walk away (NEVER willing to disagree, ALWAYS supplicating).
-etc.

That by the way pulled straight from Pook's "kill your desperation"
http://www.sosuave.net/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=16926

Now the woman will have more to go on when answer your question.

Originally posted by tmpgstx
I think in essence women do want a nice guy (if they're decent), but simply put, a nice guy with a backbone.

I also think desparation is a loose term and depends on the person. To an AW, desparation is a guy that wants a LTR. To a girl looking for an LTR, the perspective is different, she wants a guy to show interest, but not overly so to the point where it is rediculous.

Also, women want a guy they feel safe around, but at the same time has some excitement to them. The nice guy often lacks the excitement, but is safe. The jerk often lacks the safe aspect, but is exciting.

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Very good post there. A guy who respects everyone including HIMSELF basically is the nice guy and not the 'nice guy'. As far as your writing about 'nice guys' being insidiously manipulative by being friends with a girl, I don't think that fits all 'nice guys'. In a book of mine "complete idiots guide to dating", it addressed the "why doesn't he kiss me?" question. There was an example where a guy and a girl had been dating three times so far. She had asked him why he never kissed her and he explained that he didn't want to be too forward. They kissed after that. She very easily could've LJBF'ed him at this point in the mistaken notion he lacked interest in her.

It's not of any help to the considerate guy that lots of girls complain about being made uncomfortable by guys touching them. I'm not saying they don't have a right to post boundaries. My point is to the considerate guy, how's he to know when the time's right to do a given action, like kiss a girl? In the end of course, it's about taking risks, reading up on the literature and finding out what works and what doesn't. You could read all the literature you want, but if you don't practice it (which means looking like a fool or something), then there is no way to know the right timing and all that.

Originally posted by Wyldfire
This question is easily addressed once you figure out that men and women aren't talking about the same kind of guy when they use the term "nice guy".

A man's definition of "nice guy" is basically a guy who latches onto the first female who shows them any kind of attention at all and puts them on a pedestal...envisioning them as their "ideal mate". They don't show romantic interest due to lack of confidence and fear. But they pretend to be her "friend". Since women are fully capable of viewing men as friends and not a potential sex partner, she doesn't always realize mr "nice guy" is only being "nice" in some feeble attempt to make her fall for him. He's basically lying and being phony. At some point, he let's the cat out of the bag that he is "in love" with her...which he usually isn't...he's in love with the imaginary romantic partner his twisted little mind has fantasized her as being. Basically...this is a man's "nice guy".

When a woman says "nice guy" she means a MAN who is a nice person to everyone, who treats people with respect, including himself. She is NOT speaking of the asexual guy who builds his entire existance around a fantasy relationship with a girl/woman he pretends to be friends with as part of a devious and often foolish hope that if he's nice to her she will fall in love with him. That's NOT even "nice" behavior...that is about as underhanded and dishonest and sneaky as you can get. The "niceness" isn't even sincere...and comes with strings attached.

Click to expand...

Yeah, that is desparation in a nutshell. AW refers to Attention Ho.

Desparation for an AW also usually means stalking to her. It is because she has to be the center of attention, and a guy that is wanting her bad for an LTR (which is not her bag, and if it is, only short-term), will make him out to be stalking her. It's because she flirted with a guy that found her attractive and now he's taking her up on it, when in effect she just wanted another admirer, but he wants more. I've seen it time and time again.

AWs will often act and force things in terms of giving a guy attention for getting his attention in return, but that is all she wants.

Now, for a more stable decent girl, she may very well be receptive to dating a guy that shows a significant amount of interest but not overly so.

To recap the points made by Pook a bit futher:

-always giving the women attention.

This is never good too much in the beginning. If you're interested, do your thing, take it slowly but surely, but don't wait to long before giving interest, otherwise she may think you're not interested.

-calling all the time (and calling immediately once getting the number, immediately returning a call, etc.)

Not good at all. Shows you don't have anything better to do.

-taking every opportunity to talk to them (and telling everything about yourself)

Life is short and an oppurtunities come and go, so seizing the day is good, but again, with moderation. Getting to know the person before telling them everything about you. It also leaves things to talk about later.

-always available.

Not good either. Shows you will drop anything and don't have much of a life of your own.

-NEVER willing to walk away (NEVER willing to disagree, ALWAYS supplicating).

If you're disrespected, then by all means walk away. If you agree or happen to agree with her, give her a reason or two why so that she doesn't think you just agreed for the sake of agreeing. Disagree if you feel the need, but do it with integrity and again say why, but in a respectful manner.

I think this is a good nice guy approach.