The older i get the more i realize that life is a bunch of grays. I am constantly re evaluating what i thought was an absolute truth. I used to think that one should abandon hope when they enter the friendzone. My theory was that the girl just didnt have attraction for you and that attraction was not negotiable. But actually attraction may be more negotiable than we think.

I currently live in a place with a very small population of available men. This one girl was the biggest AW ever. She was hot and she knew it. She would play guys, like a fiddle all the while not giving it up. The whole time there was one guy who would follow her around, listen to her, and still be there for her even if she flirted with other guys in his face. It was obvious he liked her and was too AFC to stop being her puppy dog. They guy btw is not goodlooking at all.

We thought for sure he was in the friendzone stage 5 and me and the other guys would laugh about it. Over time her options COMPLETELY dried up and she gained weight and her hotness dropped alot. No more attention from guys. Next thing you know it looks like she is basically dating this guy.

The point is that their its not about them not being attracted to you when they put u in the FZ. Its the fact that you are on standby with a long line of guys ahead of you. Under freakishly right circumstances, like being the last guy standing, she will date you.
This is the concept of women fuc**ng alphas in their youth, but marrying betas.
The kicker is that they do grow to have affection for these betas. Some may even call it an attraction. They grow attached. So attracftion is really about economics and sexual capital. So contrary to what some PUA's say attraction can be negotiated, i guess. It just shocked me to see how women are willing to even take guys out of the friendzone once they run outa options. But when they have options they treat those guys like a castrated doormat. Humans truly are very complex and while generalizations are good, sometimes its not so black and white.

Many times when you ask a woman why she is with a guy after so many months of rejecting him she says persistence. If you are not wise to the game you would think it was actual persistence. But it was probably more about her running outa options. If the guy had quit early he probly would thought he had no chance at all...idk what do yall think about persistence. Becuz i wouldnt do it, but sumtimes it seems to work even if its the AFC route.??? or is this story just a freak exception to the rule haha

I dont agree with attraction/desire being negotiable but the rest is spot on. There is a rank for sure. Somewhere online, there is a page that talks about this. It is called "Ladder Theory" i think. And yes, she is with him because she couldnt get a better man.

Most important factor in your story is the fact that she turned fat and ugly. It precedes the fact that she ran out of options. If she had run out of options but REMAINED as good looking as before, she might not have gone for the AFC.

If you suddenly got into an accident and burned your face, would you still pursue the same level of women that you do now? Or would you adjust your target range and accept a lower level of women?

I don't believe that attraction is negotiable. Attraction is more of a sliding scale, in my opinion, and it can change depending on one's circumstances and available options. In your anecdote there was nothing "negotiated" per se----her attractiveness went down while his stayed the same or went up.

This is similar to the DJ tenet of self-improvement. When we engage in self-actualizing or improving actions, we are making a conscious effort to increase our relative value in the world. By becoming a man of higher value (something less common, more prized), we increase our chances with more attractive and better caliber women.

The classic AFC thinks that his intrinsic value is enough for the girl of his dreams....she just needs to SEE that, and with enough persistence she'll "get it".

The enlightened man knows that if all things were equal nothing would be prized, and seeks actively to improve himself, so his options and confidence in acquiring new options will be strong. Then, and only then, will he start to play from a position of power rather than need.

But keep in mind---even the AFC can play from a position of power if he chooses women 'beneath' him.

Men's value is largely earned; women's value is mostly given by society at large. High value will always be placed on beautiful women. AFCs do it, DJs do it, regular joes do it.

I think that the set point of attraction (i.e., that point at which a potential mate is just barely good enough) is basically at the equilibrium sexual market value of that person. IOW, a woman who has the experience of having men of a certain sexual market value as potential suitors will only be attracted to men at that level (and higher.) The whole problem with women is that they think just because a man of a certain high sexual market value is hitting on them, that means that they can secure such a man as a faithful mate - when the reality is that that man is only looking for a receptacle for his sp3rm. It's only after years of having unfaithful high sexual market value men so women in general some to the conclusion that they need to adjust their attractiveness criteria to have a higher component of faithfulness. Of course, some women don't make this conclusion, or not adjust their criteria fast enough - they are called cat lady spinsters.

Along with this idea is that it never hurts to have a backup plan. Like the woman mentioned in the OP, she kept a range of orbiters around as platonic friends. She did not have to degrade herself by being a girlfriend to them, so it was no big deal for her. And when her sexual market value plummeted, she had one around that at least she was very compatible with, so she had her exit strategy. She played the game well.

And as for the man. Well, he had low sexual market value, so he didn't have much to lose, and he at least got a woman who used to be attractive - that can't be any worse than a woman who never was attractive/

MatureDJ said:

I think that the set point of attraction (i.e., that point at which a potential mate is just barely good enough) is basically at the equilibrium sexual market value of that person. IOW, a woman who has the experience of having men of a certain sexual market value as potential suitors will only be attracted to men at that level (and higher.) The whole problem with women is that they think just because a man of a certain high sexual market value is hitting on them, that means that they can secure such a man as a faithful mate - when the reality is that that man is only looking for a receptacle for his sp3rm. It's only after years of having unfaithful high sexual market value men so women in general some to the conclusion that they need to adjust their attractiveness criteria to have a higher component of faithfulness. Of course, some women don't make this conclusion, or not adjust their criteria fast enough - they are called cat lady spinsters.

Along with this idea is that it never hurts to have a backup plan. Like the woman mentioned in the OP, she kept a range of orbiters around as platonic friends. She did not have to degrade herself by being a girlfriend to them, so it was no big deal for her. And when her sexual market value plummeted, she had one around that at least she was very compatible with, so she had her exit strategy. She played the game well.

And as for the man. Well, he had low sexual market value, so he didn't have much to lose, and he at least got a woman who used to be attractive - that can't be any worse than a woman who never was attractive/

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I really like this explanation man. You are right, it worked out ok for the AFC. We shall see how long it lasts when she moves to a big city. Maybe her affection for him will be able to resist all her expanded options. I wonder if women like this are constantly thinking, damn i "settled".

But you are correct, this is a pattern i have seen. Hot chick dates a series of high value guys, gets burned, gets bitter, and decides to give the AFC orbiter guys a chance. I wish it was like the movies, but this is reality right. We gotta deal with it.

In the movies its kinda like what Colossus said, the AFC reveals his intrinsic value to the girl and she finally realizes likes that she likes him. He doesnt have to improve. He just is himself. In real life it doesn't work like that.

The problem i have with the PUA community is that there is a school of thought that doesn't acknowledge the pragmatic side of female dating. They over emphasize the emotional aspect, to the point that you forget that women are also very practical. They rationally analyze what they think they are worth, analyze the suitors, and pick from that. There is not too much emotion involved in these cases. It seems like they only open up emotionally to guys that have passed the practical threshold. I mean a girl dating alphas, waiting too long and securing a faithful beta, is a game of chess(that she lost, but still).

Or they can emotionally open up to you becuz they do get attached and affectionate towards AFC orbiters. But the smart ones dont get involved sexually with them, they are saving themselves for the alphas. They logically made that decision.
So yes you can get a women by stimulating her emotions, but we should also not forget that women are also very logical too. Perhaps its a mix of the two motivations...idk?

Most important factor in your story is the fact that she turned fat and ugly. It precedes the fact that she ran out of options. If she had run out of options but REMAINED as good looking as before, she might not have gone for the AFC.

If you suddenly got into an accident and burned your face, would you still pursue the same level of women that you do now? Or would you adjust your target range and accept a lower level of women?

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yeh ur totally right man. She even started wearing different clothes when she put on the pounds. It wasnt anything too extreme, but even 10 lbs shows on small girls. She still was not ugly, but she def dropped a few points. But man when she was hot you could see that she was intoxicated with her power to lure guys in and then string them along. She was such an AW and when you called her out she would act innocent. She once said that she didnt mind that guys got attached/ strung along hoping that they would date her and nothing coming out of it. She actually enjoyed it. Thats messed up yo.

I dont agree with attraction/desire being negotiable but the rest is spot on. There is a rank for sure. Somewhere online, there is a page that talks about this. It is called "Ladder Theory" i think. And yes, she is with him because she couldnt get a better man.

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yeh i remember reading ladder theory a long time ago prob in 2003. Ima check it out again.

Pandora said:

pragmatic side of female dating. They over emphasize the emotional aspect, to the point that you forget that women are also very practical.

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Ehhhh, this is largely dependent on age/where they're at in life. The girls we are all trying to make are probably around 18-26 and will be more on the emotional side of things. After that it slowly but surely morphs more into the pragmatic side of things. Which is just a survival mechanism, but is not based in passion. The AFC last-resort will never get the burning porn-star lovin' received by the alpha of her youth. These are all "alpha-widows" anyway, right?

Pandora said:

but we should also not forget that women are also very logical too.

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Wrong.

Expedient is not synonymous with logical.

One day you will realise that just because a woman dates you or even marries you, does not mean there is any real attraction. In fact, she might even despise you.

Historically women date/marry men for many reasons, attraction was probably last on the list.

don't take this the wrong way but i really do not see the point of this post

the more "friends" a woman has a around the bigger her saftey net is.

in other words, what you are sayign is just common sense... if her options have dwindled, her friends automatcally move up in the pecking order. as jitterubg says just beucase a woman has sex with you or even marries you doesn't mean she even likes you.

the point of this forum, is not to get women. if the point of this forum was just tog et women interest din you i assure you that it can be done a lot easier than we preach here. blow money/ just get in super ripped shape you will get laid often enough. or just date women that are not as attractive.


No, the point of this forum is to get women, on your terms and who are genuinely interested in you. not becuase dshe ran out of options, nto beuse her biological clock is ticking and you are the best available, a woman who really likes you for you and wants to be with you.

so yeah you wait around until a woman gets big and her tits start to sag and all of a sudden she starts seeing you "more than a friend" and you somehow figure this is a win.


my assistant is like this. she is really like my surrogate mother, she's in her early 40's, i want to say 42. anyway, even now she's attractive but 15 years ago, legit hb9. and played the field like it.

she got knocked up when she was in her early 30's and had a son, an interracial son at that. nto that it is a big deal or anything but when you talk about settling down that's some baggage some guys don't want. anyway, she had this guy friend who she knew from her circle and around 36-37 she started flirting with him more and more and he ate it up. they started dating and they got married. and i see it everyday.. it's just not there. there isn o passion, no love, he's just a **** with a paycheck. they go to the beach every once in a while, it's easier to pay the bills with 2 incomes but i assure you that the second she can move up or out she is gone. she isnt' even attracted to him

so this guy in his mind thinks he has won the prize, after she has done all her partying made all her mistakes pushed you aside for 15 or so years, and he is lucky to get it once a week. she says she tries to go to sleep before he does so that he doesn't ask lol.

is that what you want by "waiting it out" a woman who is so unattracted to you that they go to sleep earlier and ealier to try to beat you to bed so they don't have to **** you?

Jitterbug said:

One day you will realise that just because a woman dates you or even marries you, does not mean there is any real attraction. In fact, she might even despise you.

Historically women date/marry men for many reasons, attraction was probably last on the list.

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True. Ive been asked out twice by women just to find out i was supposed to entertain them.

Dear Pandora,
Well I do see your point,however I believe the traditional DJ Mantra,of never getting into the friendzone,is really the best way to move...Your article begs a question,sure You are the one crab who crawled up and out of the Fishermans bait pot...But what then?...In general this Woman will be condescending in the crumbs she throws you,always having one eye on the Market....I have seen this develop on the Dance scene,I would like to be a fly on the Bedroom wall LOL,but here,there are in common with Bridge and doubles Tennis,maybe Business, a few different variables at work .....I have often heard it said...."One may easily find a good partner in the Sack,but finding a good Dance Partner,is like finding the proverbial Rocking Horse Doo-Daas"!

Pandora said:

but we should also not forget that women are also very logical too.

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They actually ARE logical, but the reason why we find them IL-logical is that we dont understand the basis of their logic. Women's deductive process has to do with how they FEEL, not so much the way things are in actuality. In other words, they have a thought process that is indeed very "logical" to them, but it is based primarily on the weavings of their feelings and biological motivations.

Men, on the other hand, tend to have a thought process based on facts, or evidence, which is why we find women so illogical because in their world their emotions are the arbiter of reality, not so much the objective physical.

Colossus said:

They actually ARE logical, but the reason why we find them IL-logical is that we dont understand the basis of their logic. Women's deductive process has to do with how they FEEL, not so much the way things are in actuality. In other words, they have a thought process that is indeed very "logical" to them, but it is based primarily on the weavings of their feelings and biological motivations.

or evidence, which is why we find women so illogical because in their world their emotions are the arbiter of reality, not so much the objective physical.

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lol then then thats NOT logic is it...just because you think its something and call it that doesn't mean it is IN FACT that.

that's like me defining a dog as a cat and then getting mad at the world for not agreeing with me and calling it a cat as well....there is nothing 'logical' in the way women think because they don't think...they feel.., the proper term for it would be insanity

Since the dawn of time men have known that feelings and flittering emotions are irrelevant it is ONLY ACTIONS AND PROVABLE FACT THAT MATTER...feeling thirsty and being mad about it isn't going to get the roman aquaducts built..its only in this faggotized age that men parrot 'feelings' and bow down to a feminized and deteriorating society.

Logic needs to be defined here I suppose. Being a noun it has some nuance.

a particular method of reasoning or argumentation: i.e. "We were unable to follow his logic."

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You are thinking of logic as an absolute truth, as in a cat is a cat and a dog is a dog. It is a method of reasoning.

Women use their own method of reasoning to justify, validate, or otherwise make sense of their emotions and others' actions. That doesn't necessarily make it IL-logical, even if by our own standard of reasoning it appears patently wrong. She may be ignoring known facts, or inflecting her own meaning on something that was meant quite differently...so by our own methods we deem her wrong.

This is very realtive. We arent talking about verifiable objective truths, we are talking about different methods of making sense of things. I'm not saying we should change the way we think and reason, but instead be more aware of the basis of her argument. If you think about a woman's core needs and motivations, their thought process makes a lot more sense. To them it is perfectly logical. X + Y + Z made me feel this way.

It kind of goes back to the whole "feminine mystique" myth. Women are actually very decipherable once you know their motivations.

logic definition: "reason or sound judgment, as in utterances or actions"

'sound judgement' is generally not in abundance in the female psyche...so any pretense to logic on the part of a chick should be immediately disregarded and laughed at loudly.

The only thing men need of women is to bear our children, suck our d!cks, and make us sandwiches....women are not put on earth to think, they are not good at it (not to be confused with scheming which they are quite good at)...whats there to decipher?

backbreaker said:

she got knocked up when she was in her early 30's and had a son, an interracial son at that.

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I have a friend around 50 who's into dating mommies (he even banged a granny :crackup, and said that if a woman were fine & nice enough, he could see himself being a stepdad. He started dating this really fine chick in her late 30's, but he discovered that she had a mixed race black kid, and just couldn't see himself getting into that situation (ironic in that a kid that was in that same situation is now the most powerful man in the world.)

MatureDJ said:

I have a friend around 50 who's into dating mommies (he even banged a granny :crackup, and said that if a woman were fine & nice enough, he could see himself being a stepdad. He started dating this really fine chick in her late 30's, but he discovered that she had a mixed race black kid, and just couldn't see himself getting into that situation (ironic in that a kid that was in that same situation is now the most powerful man in the world.)

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Who the hell is this kid?

Anyways, I'm into mommies and I've even had women over 60 in chambers before. And they had so much sexual energy.

Attraction can't be negotiated. All women have lots of options. If you've got alpha status, you won't have any problems. If not, then you gotta wait in line. Dating women less attractive than you is something that lots of women have caught on to. Women know how to use the power of the vagina against men. That's how they get all these orbiters.

Men can spin plates all day, but how many of them are following through with their plans? Men really can't use the power of the penis against women.

Understand that women size you up quite quickly, looks, money, status. Your personality, game, swagger, ambitions, etc. will not advance any of those big 3.