this is probalby my 2nd fav book with my first being the bear and the dragon by tom clancy. that book has a lot of sentimental meaning to me for reasons i wont' get into in this thread.


I am a big Ayn Rand fan and while I think ATlas Shrugged ws the better pure story line, I think that the fountainhead should be a staple in every aspiring DJ's collections. Even though I dont' think that, in fact i Know it was not, the intention of Rand to talk about DJ principles, nevertheless she nails them to a T.

Rowark really is the epitome of what a true alpha male really is. he's not particularly what you would call handsome though he's not ugly. He's smart but not a genius. What simply made Rowark a true alpha male was his unyielding desire to do what HE wanted to for no other reason than he wanted to do it, and he would do so depsite any trials and tribulations that came his way. It was these trails and tribulations along the way of achieving his goal; to make architecture that that he felt was more practical in an age where people made buildings that were not very praticall but were pretty by Gothic and Romanesque standards. While his counterparts were more worried about balance and symmetry he was worried about functionality.

Everyone he encountered, and this is key, very very few liked him. not beucase he was a jerk.. he actually was quite kind hearted when the time called for it to be, but becuase a person who is unflinchingf in their dreams and desires and does not confirm to soecities views, people have an unyielding desire to see people like this crash for no other reason to confirm to themselves that they made the right decision in life; the safe path so to speak. But even the people who did not like him, and there were many, anyone who knew him, seriously knew him knew that he was a person to be respected. even if you did not like him. His arch nemesis, Keating, though he went out of his way to chasties him, take his job from him, hell steal his designs and call them his own, craved for his approval.


from a purely DJish standpoint, it shows exactly how to deal with that "hb 10" who in the book is dominque falcon. she can and does have any man she wants. she 's rich she's hot she 's smart and she is opinionated. she's classy she's every man's dream girl. despite all these men who are crazy about her she is head over heels in love with roawrk. despite being this domiante alpha female she takes her natural place as a supplementing woman around him. lol he doesn't game her. hell he pratically rapes her lol. he said yeah.. you know.. i think i will **** her. and just goes in her room and forces her to have sex with him and she loves every mintue of it

the book also hits home a point that most men do not get; just because you get the woman, does not mean you are the man. getting the woman is not the end game. in the book, rowark was without a doubt the boss of the book and only had one real love interest the entire book and the majority of the book he was single. keating could have dated anyone and married falcon but the entire time she was married to him and it was not long she was thinking about rowark. she just could not be with him. keating and rowark were polar opposites. Rowark was a man who did not listen to people and did what he wanted to do despite any criticism of people whereas keating did what people thought he should do even though he had no real desire to do it becuase he liked being popular, but as it was pointed out when dominque left him he had no personality of his own because of it.
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the book really was one of the turning points about understanding DJism and alpha male ism, in the sense that being a DJ or Alpha really has nothing to do with women. the women are a byproduct of how you live your life. if you live your life in a alpha mentality, you being an alpha with the females will come quite naturally.

One of my favorites, as well.

Howard was no doubt the man, and the living embodiment of what it means to be an egotist according to Rand. Let's not forget that he had to go through hell in order to become who he is and to secure what he has.

It's hard for me to select who among the two - Gail Wynand or Howard - is the prototype for today's alpha male. They're similar in all ways except one, which was pointed out in the book, in that Gail was dependent on the respect and servitude of others which disqualified him from being the ultimate egotist.

BackBreaker, do you think Rand's definition of an egotist is totally interchangeable with the qualifications of an alpha male?

AmIAFC said:

One of my favorites, as well.

Howard was no doubt the man, and the living embodiment of what it means to be an egotist according to Rand. Let's not forget that he had to go through hell in order to become who he is and to secure what he has.

It's hard for me to select who among the two - Gail Wynand or Howard - is the prototype for today's alpha male. They're similar in all ways except one, which was pointed out in the book, in that Gail was dependent on the respect and servitude of others which disqualified him from being the ultimate egotist.

BackBreaker, do you think Rand's definition of an egotist is totally interchangeable with the qualifications of an alpha male?

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SEE i don't agree.

make no mistake gail was a motherfvcking G and a guy i would defiantly hang out with but i do not consider himself an alpha male.
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well, let me rephrase. by definition he is a man that other men look up to so yes he is an alpha male. but he is not what i would call a DJ.

he does a good / valiant job of hiding it but he is very dependent on the approval of others. he holds grudges, where as rowark understands that everyone will always act in their best interest at that time and despite the **** that everyone did to him he really isn't bitter. he gets it. whereas gail is so vindictive he named his boat i do based off **** that happened to him 30 years earlier in life.

truth be told, there is a lot of gail in me. i would not call myself vindictive but i feed off peoples doubts. i work best with a chip on my shoulder. but i don't think i have it in me to rub it in the face of people like he did to the point where he got people fired and even killed who crossed his path earlier in life.

gail reminds me of myself of someone who is quite possibly very ****ed up in the head but instead of breaking down he uses this ****ed up ness to create something that is very productive but at the core he has issues.


in the book, there are 2 motif like caracters and they are basically baramoters of how they view a person and their true nature. Ellsworth does not have a very high opinion of Gail depsite his fame, he sees him for what he really is. He respects him but does not have a particuarly high opinion of him. On the other hand he sees Rowark for the man that he is and shows him the utmost respect.

Dominque also is the other. she marries Gail but and while she is nice to him and treats him better than she did keating she still does not see him as her equal or a man she sees in the same light as rowark.

there are only 2 alpha males in the book IMHO and one is Rowark and the other is Ellsworth.

Gail was not dependent on the approval of others. He was dependent on their respect and fear towards him. Ellsworth, too, was of the same mold, as he clearly explained to a frightened Peter that his main objective all along was control, to force his readers and fans to fully subscribe to his way of thinking. Ellsworth wanted to be Gail, he just wasn't in the position to make that happen, even though he tried and nearly succeeded in usurping Gail.

They're both alpha males in their own set of ways, as they both possess the skillset and self-centered mindset that warrant awe in the eyes of many. They were flawed in relation to Howard, as they were clearly dependent on others, emotionally, on things, but I don't think that completely offsets their alpha male title.

Howard is definitely the ultimate alpha male and an egotist. He's completely self-aware, self-reliant, and self-functioning. His unwavering set of principles subjected him to all sorts of criticism and punishment that would have broken a lesser man, but even poverty and the promise of long-term incarceration didn't deter him. Like you've mentioned, he was not a man that sustained himself on the approval and judgment of others, which is the result of someone who's at complete peace with themself.

In terms of DJing in real life, I think there's a lot one can learn from Rand's definition of an egotist. Specifically not taking to heart the criticisms or rejections of members from the opposite sex. Not having your emotions or actions handcuffed to theirs, and to operate your life in accordance to your own self-created ideals and goals.

Been a few years since I read the book. I agree that Roark is the perfect definition of the alpha male, but I feel his character is quite questionable. Like there are missing pieces. Holes if you will.

Someone that has an unyielding passion for what they want in life, whom are talented, and do not kowtow to the establishment does not automatically qualifiy them to be good with women. Unless he was a NATURAL with women ofcourse.

With women you have to have game. You have to know how to talk to them. How to be comfortable. And have the attributes that display you are a good catch. And all of that comes with practice.

So my summation is that yes Roark was the ideal. But they didn't show how he got there. Seems like they were going with the assumption that the talents he had were natural..that isn't the case with everyone. Some need their talents nutured...some honed...and others need theirs discovered. Wow some even need certain experiences to be good with women.

Delly2000 said:

Been a few years since I read the book. I agree that Roark is the perfect definition of the alpha male, but I feel his character is quite questionable. Like there are missing pieces. Holes if you will.

Someone that has an unyielding passion for what they want in life, whom are talented, and do not kowtow to the establishment does not automatically qualifiy them to be good with women. Unless he was a NATURAL with women ofcourse.

With women you have to have game. You have to know how to talk to them. How to be comfortable. And have the attributes that display you are a good catch. And all of that comes with practice.

So my summation is that yes Roark was the ideal. But they didn't show how he got there. Seems like they were going with the assumption that the talents he had were natural..that isn't the case with everyone. Some need their talents nutured...some honed...and others need theirs discovered. Wow some even need certain experiences to be good with women.

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i don't understand how you came to this conclusion at all.

the book clearly shows that rowark had to work his ass off to get where he was in life. he was not a "natural" at anything. he had to rent a room at keatings mom's house just to go to school and he spent all of his free time working on his craft while hsi other classmates were out partying and having fun.

throughout the rest of the book, there are times when he just doesn't have any money but there are times when he does have money and even still he would rather go over some of his work and make improvements on it than go out and go tot he movies or go out to eat. how you come to the conclusion that he is a natural is beyond me.


if anyone was a natrual it was keating. he hated architecture yet excelled at it. his sole reason for doing it was that his mom thought it would be a good career path for him. yet by the middle of the book, a man from modest means runs the biggest firm in new york and is set for life financially yet you come to the conclusiont hat rowark is the natural lol?

you are also confusing game with plates. rowark had game. he just did not have a lot of paltes becuase he was not interested in most women. most women bored him. it wasn't even dominques beatuty that made him want her it was that he saw instantly that she was cut from the same mold that he was. once he decided that he wanted her he got her. he had the herione of the book head over heels in love with him and she deovted her life to him yet he doesn't have game? i don't get that.

what the fountainhead shows is that the number of bed notches that you have, while if that's what you want to do, that is not what does or does not make you an alpha male. Gail had countless numbers of women. Rowark did not. both were quite alpha males. there is no doubt in my mind that if rowark set out to add notches on the bed post he could have but he did not. whereas that was what gail set out to do and he did it. but that fact does not make a person alpha or beta. that's something we have to remember

Hmmm. Okay. I will admit that it has been awhile (a few years) since I read the book. So my recollection could be a bit fuzzy.

But innate talent seems to be a resounding theme in Rands books like in Atlas Shrugged where people were living off of the "Pioneers" work but didn't expect them to get their due compensation. Kinda like how Roark was helping Keating clean up some of his projects but agumenting the design..and Keating would get the praise. But anway. It has been awhile since I have read both books so I will concede those points.

backbreaker said:

you are also confusing game with plates. rowark had game. he just did not have a lot of paltes becuase he was not interested in most women.

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Agreed. Roark had inner game and Keating had outer game. Day and night. In fact, I'd almost compare some of the PUA mentality to Keating: assume the posturing and social presentation of an alpha male, but still full of insecurities, doubts, and validation-seeking on the inside.

Whereas Roark embodied true DJ'ness. He didn't "act" aloof in order to secure the attention of whatever woman, or to appear alpha: he truly did not give an f. One of my favorite lines in the whole book was where Ellsworth gets him alone finally and asks him what he truly thinks of him and Roark simply says "I don't." Lol.
Roark didn't even insult him or take advantage of Toohey's rare moment of entreating, supplicating behaviour, he just didn't care whatsoever.

Delly2000 said:

Someone that has an unyielding passion for what they want in life, whom are talented, and do not kowtow to the establishment does not automatically qualifiy them to be good with women.

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No it qualifies them to be good at LIFE. The message being: Your mission comes first, women are somewhere down the list after that. Roark never put Dominique before his mission, and never would have. Valuable lesson.

Delly2000 said:

But they didn't show how he got there. Seems like they were going with the assumption that the talents he had were natural..that isn't the case with everyone.

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You're right: That isn't the case with everyone. Different people have different levels of innate intelligence/ability/talent/etc in different areas. Rand understood that but she also conveyed the message that just because you're born smart or talented doesn't mean you deserve sh!t. Roark had to work in a freaking rock quarry and then construction for years even though he had immense talent with his mind. And he CHOSE to work these shi!tty manual labor jobs rather than compromise his vision. To me The Fountainhead is about Integrity, first and foremost.

Agreed. Roark had inner game and Keating had outer game. Day and night. In fact, I'd almost compare some of the PUA mentality to Keating: assume the posturing and social presentation of an alpha male, but still full of insecurities, doubts, and validation-seeking on the inside.

Whereas Roark embodied true DJ'ness. He didn't "act" aloof in order to secure the attention of whatever woman, or to appear alpha: he truly did not give an f. One of my favorite lines in the whole book was where Ellsworth gets him alone finally and asks him what he truly thinks of him and Roark simply says "I don't." Lol.
Roark didn't even insult him or take advantage of Toohey's rare moment of entreating, supplicating behaviour, he just didn't care whatsoever.

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damn bro that's some next level **** right there lol. Yet true.

If you remember, I think it was right before Dominique asked Keating to marry him, they were I think in an elevator or whatever they were leaving someplace together and Keating asked Dominque what he thought of her and she said the exact same thing "I don't"

backbreaker said:

damn bro that's some next level **** right there lol. Yet true.

If you remember, I think it was right before Dominique asked Keating to marry him, they were I think in an elevator or whatever they were leaving someplace together and Keating asked Dominque what he thought of her and she said the exact same thing "I don't"

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Yeah Rand was something else. I've read TF and AS probably 5 or 6 times each over the last 10 years. It'll still astonish me sometimes when I'm reading her work and then suddenly remember "holy sh!t, a WOMAN wrote this" haha. Wonders never cease.

Btw man, check your PM's.