Women with BPD

I know there tons of BPD threads out there, but this ones a little different. I have a problem because all I seem to attract is the women with BPD.
How do you attract the "sane" women and how would you know that she doesn't have BPD? (My guard usually goes up instantly when im with a women with BPD and I can sense it, if that makes sense)

I believe BPDs women are easily spotting out the weak points in a men's character. First they fill them and then they are "testing" your borders with their fvcked mind games.
If a man feels and is complete by himself they can't get so easily attached and they lose very fast their patience or they feel rejected wihout being rejected. Often they are watching out for a new victim because BPDs can't be for a long time alone because of their emptiness. There are specific BPD Red Flags out there.

What you can do for yourself: Write all the characterstics of your BPD exes down (good and also bad ones) and you will find out that they are close to each other. Try to give by yourself these good things what the BPDs gave to you and always remember the price for it - not to forget what BPDs can cause inside of you. For BPDs you need to have a strong inner game / frame and even then they are poison for a relationship. If they are high functional their could be a friendship with but by everything closer the danger is too high to loose yourself in their empty souls.

Often it needs just one BPD in your life to avoid them for the rest of your life. If you resist this hard and painful process of learning it could be so that you like to be in a caretaker role or that you have a co dependency problem. Such things are often caused by our childhood.

I'm really interested what the other BPD experts on this board will add to my message..

It seems that a lot of people jump to make their dignosis of Borderline Personality Disorder (BPD) (for those who don't know what it means)

I'll give you the criteria here, see if the women you have been with meet the actual criteria for BPD.

pervasive pattern of instability of interpersonal relationships, self image, and affects, marked impulsivity beginning by early adulthood and present in a variety of contexts, as indicated by FIVE (or more) of the following:

1)frantic efforts to avoid real or imagined abandonment
2) A pattern of unstable and intense interpersonal relationships characterized by alternating between extremes of idealization and devaluation (loves you one day, hates you the other for no reason).
3) identity disturbance: markedly and persistently unstable self image or sense of self.
4) impulsivity in at least two areas that are potentially self damaging (spending, sex, substance abuse, reckless driving, binge eating)
5) recurrent suicidal behvior, gestures, or threats, or self mutilating behavior.
6) affective instability due to a marked reactivity of mood (intense episodic dysphoria (mild depressive disorder) irritability, or anxiety usually lasting a few hours and only rarely more than a few days)
7) chronic feelings of emptiness
8)inappropriate intense anger or difficulty controlling anger (frequent displays of temper, constant anger, recurrent physical fights)
transient stress related paranoid ideation or severe dissociative symptoms.


CRITERIA 2: they may idealize potential caregivers or lovers at the first or second meeting, demand to spend a lot of time together, and share the most intimate details early in a relationship however, they may switch quickly from idealizing other people to devaluing them, feeling that the other person does not care enough, does not give enough, is not there enough. these individuals are prone to sudden and dramatic shifts in their view of others.

individuals with BPD have pattern of undermining themselves at the moment a goal is about to be realized: destroying a good relationship just when it is clear that the relationship could last)

premature death from suicide may occur in individuals with this disorder, physical handicaps may result from self inflicted abuse behaviors or failed suicide attemtps.

recurrent job losses, interrupted education, broken marriages are common. physical and sexual abuse, neglect, hostile conflict, and early parental loss or separation are more common in hte childhood history of those with BPD.

easily bored. they may constantly something to do. individuals with BPD frequently express inappropriate intesnse anger , extreme sarcasm, enduring bitterness, or verbal outbursts. The anger is often elicited when a caregiver or lover is seen as neglectful, withholding, uncaring or abandoning.

taken from the DSM-IV-TR.
hope it helps
Piero

I think the whole BPD and Cluster B thing gets waaaaay overused on these forums.

I don't deny there's some crazies out there because there are - but most of the symptoms of the so-called "BPD" women just seem like the behaviors of a woman without high interest.

I think a lot of guys use it is as a way to protect their egos from accepting the truth - "she didn't reject me, she's just a BPD nutjob".

pipe007 said:

they may idealize potential caregivers or lovers at the first or second meeting, demand to spend a lot of time together, and share the most intimate details early in a relationship however, they may switch quickly from idealizing other people to devaluing them, feeling that the other person does not care enough, does not give enough, is not there enough. these individuals are prone to sudden and dramatic shifts in their view of others.

individuals with BPD have pattern of undermining themselves at the moment a goal is about to be realized: destroying a good relationship just when it is clear that the relationship could last)

easily bored. they may constantly something to do. individuals with BPD frequently express inappropriate intesnse anger , extreme sarcasm, enduring bitterness, or verbal outbursts. The anger is often elicited when a caregiver or lover is seen as neglectful, withholding, uncaring or abandoning.

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Very good. One of my ex was so. The boredom was caused by her feeling of emptiness. Then she did want just to sleep and to be alone. At least she was so good to realize this for herself because in every other way she would have caused just problems to her lover

starplayer said:

"she didn't reject me, she's just a BPD nutjob".

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When a BPD rejects you, you should be just happy and close all the doors :rockon:

But it's true, too many men are using this label as a excuse. Everyone of us has some personal disorder "habbits" but we aren't by them psychopaths. And many women can be impulsive and moodiness out of their hormone cycle..

Moodiness + Impulsivity + Rejection isn't BPD because this can be every woman

Just 3-7% of the women should have BPD. By the messages on Sosuave this rate seems to be much more higher

Exactly, a lot of people jump to conclusions where there is no evidence to suggest that a diagnosis of BPD is even convenient.

some women might have some BPD traits, or milder forms of the disorder, which is not abnormal. Mood swings is characteristic of some type of women. The problem lies when this personality creates dysfunction and distress in both her life and the lives of those around her.

disfunction as seen in socia, occupational, education, and relationship areas.

Also this personality type is pervasive and its not episodic. meaning, if you go back to her personal history, you can see that the BPD has been present more times than not for several years.

this is not a reaction event that happens just once, for some guys to come to the forums stating their girls are BPD. they probably Low interest as someone mentioned.

best thing to do is deal with those situations like a man, and if she is not giving you what you want. Get rid of the problem (her)

here's a little article I read this morning as a matter of fact. I keep attracting fvcked up chicks to, and I need to apply this myself.

Today I wanna open up the newsletter with some insights I've
been having lately with regard to the quality of women I've
been dating.

See, it wasn't that long ago that it seemed like every girl I
went out with was some sort of psychopath.

This one's an alcoholic. This one's on drugs. This one's a
self-mutilator. This one has severe mental problems. This
one's an alcoholic, self-mutilating drug addict addicted to
drugs with severe mental problems.

Everywhere I turned, nothing but these crazy women.

And of course, if you were to hang around me, I'd tell you all
about it.

Yeah, I'd sit there and for 30 minutes moan and
wail about how there were no "quality girls" in San Francisco,
how the whole city was like living in one of those holiday
snow globes, except instead of snow, it was blow whirling
around dirty hipsters with crappy haircuts.

Oh... woe is Jeffy!

However, not too long ago, I came to a revelation.

I realized that by continually focusing on and thinking
about these messed-up girls, I was inadvertently DRAWING THEM
TOWARDS ME.

By constantly complaining about them, I was essentially
putting out an incantation to the universe to bring them
right to my doorstep. Of course that's all I was finding...
I was constantly LOOKING FOR it.

So I made a concerted effort to put that stuff out of my head.
I just STOPPED THINKING ABOUT IT. That's it.

Before you know it, I was finding myself involved with a
much higher calibre of woman. Successful people who had
stuff going on in their lives and who were NOT total head
cases. It was as though the world was presenting me with a
whole new class of opportunities.

I kid you not, it was like NIGHT AND DAY.

Whaddya know.

Anyway, this is a complaint I hear from a lot of guys, and I
thought it might be helpful if I shared my personal solution
here.

Stop focusing on the negative, because when you do that, you
end up bringing MORE of it upon yourself.

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horaholic said:

here's a little article I read this morning as a matter of fact. I keep attracting fvcked up chicks to, and I need to apply this myself.

Click to expand...

That article was exactly what I thought of after I wrote this post. Sometimes though things are easier said then done. I have family members who are BPD so it sorta brings back memories at times. This is a great thread though, keep the responses coming guys.

I realized that by continually focusing on and thinking
about these messed-up girls, I was inadvertently DRAWING THEM
TOWARDS ME.

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I saw this post last night on my phone and was gonna type something but I was too lazy to do it...lazy or drunk either way. Anyway lo and behold this is what I wanted to say in just two lines. horaholic went and scratched my proverbial itch for me.

Buy the book "Venus the dark side"

Guys don´t be naive, ANYONE can be played! Even newbie psychologists!! The easier targets are the naive, fixers, insecure and people with people-pleasing behavior. Anyone with latent need is a good target, she uses this need to control you. If you bump into her at the "right time", you´re the target. Takers are a tough target because they have nothing to offer!! The problem is, Bpds are master game players. You are played and you don´t even know! How to know if the problem is real or it´s just a normal girl?

"Think that therapeutic professionals are immune to Borderlines? Think again. Dialogues with personality disordered individuals leave us all feeling like we need a shower to wash off the toxic sludge their devaluations and guilt trips leave behind."

Here we go>>>

*Unstable/rapidly-shifting patterns of relating; hot/cold, come here/go away, push-pull dynamics.

*Quick/intense involvement, premature conversations about living together, marrying or discussing names of future children. Pregnancy entrapment.

*Attachment and abandonment fears, avoidant personality.

*Abusive and rejecting emotionally, psychologically and/or physically.

*Addiction to chaos and drama. Short-lived serene/harmonious periods.

*Cognitive distortion or thought disordered. Strangely incongruent responses to your attempts to communicate openly or engage.

*Commitment phobic, disrupts/runs away from closeness and intimacy.

*Crazy-making interactions. Poor comprehension skills, lacks common sense.

*A desperate need for attention/approval from you and others.

*Dissociated, disconnected, shut-down, 'checked out' or numb.

*Drug, alcohol and/or food abuse (eating disorders).

*Expects you to be a mind-reader or mommy, and intuit his/her needs.

*Extreme jealousy, and a need to separate you from all other attachments.

*Inappropriately flirtatious with others, even in your presence.

*Gaslighting; makes you doubt your perceptions, or think you're going crazy.

*Guilting and shaming you during and after the relationship; when anything's gone wrong, it's always your fault.

*Highly manipulative and controlling.

*Hoovering; subtle or obvious attempts to re-engage you, suck you back into their life, seduce and manipulate you, etc. BPD's use pitiful outcries for help, or sneaky efforts to get to You through your kids, your friends or family.

*Hypersexuality or asexuality (non-sexual).

*Infantile behavior; tantrums, rageful outbursts, persistent baby-talk, etc.

*Infidelity, extramarital affairs, 'cheating' on partner.

*Inflated sense of self; grandiosity or false sense of entitlement.

*Intense, irrational abandonment fears/concerns.

*Kitchen-sinking; during your relational upsets, they bring up everything (but the kitchen sink) you've ever done 'wrong' and clobber you with it--whether it was resolved at an earlier time, or not! This derails problem solving.

*Lack of remorse or empathy, and unwillingness to own their mistakes/flaws.

*Lying and deceitfulness, mixed messages, self-contradicting.

*Needy, clingy or overly dependent.

*Only wanting/loving you when there's distance--or they can't have you.

*Paradoxical emotional responses; when you love them more, they love you less. The closer you get, the more they need to distance.

*Passive-aggression; acting it out, rather than talking it out.

*Pervasive feelings of hopelessness, helplessness or pessimism.

*Physical ailments, pain, allergies, diseases--even if very young.

*Poor impulse control. Capable of volatile or violent behaviors. Vandalism.

*Poor self-worth, insecurity, low self-esteem.

*Projection; they assign their own deficits/faults, to you.

*Rebound relationships are very common (the bed never gets cold).

*Selective memory or recall of events pertaining to their screw-ups. When it comes to yours, his/her mind is like a steel trap!

*Self-harm or self-mutilation; cutting/burning skin, picking at blemishes until there is significant damage to adjacent tissue, numerous piercings, tattoos, etc., poor or distorted body image.

*Self-sabotage in personal and/or professional realms.

*Sexual molestation or incest in childhood (which may not be remembered).

*Significant lapses in childhood memory.

*Splitting; idealizing or devaluing behaviors, love you/hate you, and black or white perceptions.

*Stalking; following/shadowing you, incessant text or phone messages, etc.

*Suicidal ideation and emotional blackmail; "I don't want to go on living--I'll kill myself if you leave me/don't return," etc.

*Tricotillomania; an ongoing compulsion to pull out facial hair (eyelashes, eyebrows, etc.) or body hair. Considered a facet of self-mutilation.

Borderlines will only let you know what they're wanting or needing you to know. The fabrications and lies start from the very beginning--which is why it seems like you've noticed so many mixed signals and contradictions.

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I got an idea. We always see threads about women who have BPD and it always ends up being a BPD bashing thread. Lets give this a shot, everyone tell me what are signs of a women WITHOUT BPD.

It´s not bashing!

Well your quesiton is impossible to answer! Normal women reciprocate, are affectionate, don´t run away from you with your best friend, etc.

The main difference is something called CONSISTENCY. Your desires are respected, not invalidated! You´re not blackmailed with "Do this if you love me" or "Do this or else..." and so forth.

thank you to pipe007 and and Blue Phoenix for the additional info. I've never seen the text about "Criteria 2", is that from the same medical journal as the list of 9 symptoms in the first list of criteria? If so, I'm pretty confident that my ex-wife had some form of the disorder.

I agree with people that say that you begin to see the symptoms in other people everywhere. If you ask me, its impossible to determine unless you have a serious sexual relationship and the words "i love you" are exchanged. Otherwise, you can only assume.

That said, i've seen some pretty strong signs in one other friend of mine. She has described some intense episodes with her ex-boyfriend that sound awfully close to what I experienced in my relationship. She's tried to put the moves on me but I've learned how to side step it without causing a bug scene, or maybe I just got lucky. Either way, i can tell that she tried to hook me in and couldn't do it. It felt eerily similar.

Also, just based on all the reading I've done online, I'm pretty confident my boss is a narcissist. Even if he isn't, its made dealing with him a lot easier. With clients and the staff he is manipulative, sneaky, promises you the world, then pulls the rug out from under you. He recalls events way different from reality, just like my ex-wife did. To see how shady and manipulative he is frustrating and interesting to watch at the same time. I still pull my hair out because of him, but at least I can tolerate it for next few weeks that I have left. My co-workers obsess over how crazy he is. Our company has so much turnover with employees, I can't tell how they stayed in business so long.

To the OP, I'm not sure how long its been since your BPD relationship ended, but life gets exponentially better as time passes. For me, its been a year and 3 months since and I'm feeling pretty good. I keep a journal to track my progress and put my thoughts on paper. This helps in many many ways, very therapeutic. She still pops up in my head a lot, but that may have more to do with me not dating anyone right now. I figure the damage would be worse for people that were dumped by the BPD instead of being the dumper like I was.

As for moving on, I've learned that all you can do is apply the "good" from your bpd relationship to your future relationships (with everybody, not just women you're interested in). Be nice, give little gifts, give compliments without expecting anything in return (because sometimes you won't). Also, you'll realize that dealing with people that have issues is not a scary thing that you have to run away from. They are just really insecure, scared, confused and lonely. If anything, they really just need a friend or somebody that feels safe. You don't have to be their friend but it is possible for a time.

Still, its good to keep your guard up, let people earn the privilege to get to know you better. That other BPD friend I mentioned was a co-worker of mine, she's come through for me more times than I can count. She's very good looking so it was cool to have something nice to look at during work. She's brought me gifts and did favors for me many times. Recently she moved away and now lives clear across the country. That's the way it goes with people like her, but I definitely appreciate the friendship we had.

I believe my generosity mixed with being a no BS jerk actually discourages women with issues from approaching me. I give off the impression that I can be kind but I don't have time for your drama and BS. I believe really messed up women realize right off the bat that I'm too good for them or assume I'm too busy to care about their petty crap. Yet most people are drawn to the fact that I'm giving and will come through for them if the situation calls for it.

That mixture helps people realize that they are on my time and must respect it. I think being a straight up jerk will only attract messed up women in herds. They love being neglected, abused and treated like ****. If you tell them how nice they look today, they take the compliment but all of sudden they're not attracted to you sexually. With ex-wife, I rarely told her how nice she looked. About 3 months in, she pointed out to me that I never once paid her a compliment about her looks.

I'm telling you from experience, maybe others will have another angle on this. Either way, everything changes with time including your perspective on things. Be patient

oops, my bad

...

KingofHearts said:

If you ask me, its impossible to determine unless you have a serious sexual relationship and the words "i love you" are exchanged. Otherwise, you can only assume.

It´s easy to spot> Early clinging, sharing of personal information, victimization, fast intimacy, feeling drained, contradictions, secrecy, everything happening too fast

I'm pretty confident my boss is a narcissist. Even if he isn't, its made dealing with him a lot easier. With clients and the staff he is manipulative, sneaky, promises you the world, then pulls the rug out from under you. He recalls events way different from reality, just like my ex-wife did. To see how shady and manipulative he is frustrating and interesting to watch at the same time. I still pull my hair out because of him, but at least I can tolerate it for next few weeks that I have left. My co-workers obsess over how crazy he is. Our company has so much turnover with employees, I can't tell how they stayed in business so long.

Npds are abusers to those below them and suck-ups to higher ups. They´re cowards. Some of them are ridiculous and think they are the sh!t but are scum bags while others are incredibly intelligent and articulate. Mostly their goal is money. Employees are nothing more than monkey´s pawns. I had some NPD professors who until today I look up to. They are really smart despite the put downs. They take no sh1t not even from HBs, that´s why girls love them, they are the ultimate prize, not the girl.

I believe my generosity mixed with being a no BS jerk actually discourages women with issues from approaching me. I give off the impression that I can be kind but I don't have time for your drama and BS. I believe really messed up women realize right off the bat that I'm too good for them.

TRUE.

I think being a straight up jerk will only attract messed up women in herds. They love being neglected, abused and treated like ****. If you tell them how nice they look today, they take the compliment but all of sudden they're not attracted to you sexually. With ex-wife, I rarely told her how nice she looked. About 3 months in, she pointed out to me that I never once paid her a compliment about her looks.

RIGHT ON. The less you give attention and affection to them the more they like you. It´s simple, they don´t feel they deserve to be loved, so they´re not SEXUALLY attracted to these types. Bpd girls actually ABUSE you if you´re nice to them. They feel powerful doing this. However, If you don´t show affection she doesn´t feel powerful so she keeps on her best behavior or at least doesn´t insult you because you´re not "there" yet. She will try as much as she can, though. It´s a dominance game, if she dominates you´re done. Her main hook is emotional.

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In bold

Blue Phoenix said:

In bold

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Ok I half way agree with you. The SYMPTOMS are easy to spot, so you at least know what you're dealing with. What's impossible, is to determine if she's clinically diagnosed as BPD or something less severe. I've read that only a psychiatrist can diagnose that through a series of tests. Like I've said before though, either way you gotta react the same way. And the way you act is without affection. Blue, you hit right on the head. You can be kind, without giving affection. But how many understand the difference? How many will actually apply this knowledge? I wish I could post in the MM forum where at least you can get a discussion going without the topic falling to the bottom of the page in an hour.

And with my boss, the biggest sign to me that he has NPD is that publically he is the kindest, generous guy you'll ever meet. He'll buy you dinner, do you favors etc. He is one of the best public speakers i have ever seen. He is very persuasive and very charasmatic. I've learned a whole bunch from him and try to apply it the same way as I do with my ex-wife, minus the greedy back-stabbing stuff.

"And with my boss, the biggest sign to me that he has NPD is that publically he is the kindest, generous guy you'll ever meet. He'll buy you dinner, do you favors etc. He is one of the best public speakers i have ever seen. He is very persuasive and very charasmatic. I've learned a whole bunch from him and try to apply it the same way as I do with my ex-wife, minus the greedy back-stabbing stuff."

sorry kingofhearts... but if your boss acts "kind and generous, he'll buy you dinner." that is an inmediate rule out for NPD... this is not signs of NPD

narcissitic personality disorder individuals have no insight to their problem, they require excessive admiration, have a sense of entitlement....is INTERPERSONALLY EXPLOITATIVE, TAKES advantage of others to achieve his or her own ends.... LACKS EMPATHY.. is unwilling to recognize or identify with feeligns and needs of others........... is often envious of others or believes that ohters are envious of him or her.... shows arrogant haughty behaviors.... THIS IS NPD!!


he might have some traits...

pipe007 said:

It seems that a lot of people jump to make their dignosis of Borderline Personality Disorder (BPD) (for those who don't know what it means)

I'll give you the criteria here, see if the women you have been with meet the actual criteria for BPD.

pervasive pattern of instability of interpersonal relationships, self image, and affects, marked impulsivity beginning by early adulthood and present in a variety of contexts, as indicated by FIVE (or more) of the following:

1)frantic efforts to avoid real or imagined abandonment
2) A pattern of unstable and intense interpersonal relationships characterized by alternating between extremes of idealization and devaluation (loves you one day, hates you the other for no reason).
3) identity disturbance: markedly and persistently unstable self image or sense of self.
4) impulsivity in at least two areas that are potentially self damaging (spending, sex, substance abuse, reckless driving, binge eating)
5) recurrent suicidal behvior, gestures, or threats, or self mutilating behavior.
6) affective instability due to a marked reactivity of mood (intense episodic dysphoria (mild depressive disorder) irritability, or anxiety usually lasting a few hours and only rarely more than a few days)
7) chronic feelings of emptiness
8)inappropriate intense anger or difficulty controlling anger (frequent displays of temper, constant anger, recurrent physical fights)
transient stress related paranoid ideation or severe dissociative symptoms.


CRITERIA 2: they may idealize potential caregivers or lovers at the first or second meeting, demand to spend a lot of time together, and share the most intimate details early in a relationship however, they may switch quickly from idealizing other people to devaluing them, feeling that the other person does not care enough, does not give enough, is not there enough. these individuals are prone to sudden and dramatic shifts in their view of others.

individuals with BPD have pattern of undermining themselves at the moment a goal is about to be realized: destroying a good relationship just when it is clear that the relationship could last)

premature death from suicide may occur in individuals with this disorder, physical handicaps may result from self inflicted abuse behaviors or failed suicide attemtps.

recurrent job losses, interrupted education, broken marriages are common. physical and sexual abuse, neglect, hostile conflict, and early parental loss or separation are more common in hte childhood history of those with BPD.

easily bored. they may constantly something to do. individuals with BPD frequently express inappropriate intesnse anger , extreme sarcasm, enduring bitterness, or verbal outbursts. The anger is often elicited when a caregiver or lover is seen as neglectful, withholding, uncaring or abandoning.

taken from the DSM-IV-TR.
hope it helps
Piero

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fits my ex to a T...99% dead on

pipe007 said:

sorry kingofhearts... but if your boss acts "kind and generous, he'll buy you dinner." that is an inmediate rule out for NPD... this is not signs of NPD

narcissitic personality disorder individuals have no insight to their problem, they require excessive admiration, have a sense of entitlement....is INTERPERSONALLY EXPLOITATIVE, TAKES advantage of others to achieve his or her own ends.... LACKS EMPATHY.. is unwilling to recognize or identify with feeligns and needs of others........... is often envious of others or believes that ohters are envious of him or her.... shows arrogant haughty behaviors.... THIS IS NPD!!

he might have some traits...

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Yeah, I kind of agree here. It depends on the context. NPDS can feign empathy when they want something from you. That´s what they do to girls, charm the hell out of her and after bang8ing her he toss her like toilet paper. They are perfect just to those above him because he needs them to have access to power. It depends where you are on the hierarchy. This boss doesn´t seem a full blown NPD, but a mild variation not so toxic.

About the label, NPD, BPD. The only thing I can say is IT DOESN`T MATTER. If they are making you miserable, get the hell out of there!