Of all the naturals I have known in my life they all seemed to have one basic trait in common: they really did not care about the girl and thus they were aggressive, acted, and were primarily unconcerned by the outcome.

Isn’t that maximum alpha? Why would an alpha care?

Uncaring is a very beneficial trait - because not only did it cause them to try a great deal and this maximised their chances of success (there was no “she’s so great” freeze up) it also presents a very confident personality.

I really think not caring about the outcome works with both women and in business. Go for it, but do not care about the outcome, and then go for it again. It conveys, you want it, but you have lots of options. Take it now, or live with the regret.

Women seem drawn to men that in reality do not give a stuff about them. We have all seen the HB 10 going after a guy that we know does not give a darn about her, yet like a moth to a light she can just not see the danger. It isn’t “bad boy”, it’s “don’t give a stuff boy”.

So the AFC changes to, “don’t give a stuff boy” and is successful with women.

The great paradox of women, is that they are draw to men that do not care about them and commonly repelled by those that do...yes, the challenge, bad boy, and all the rest of it...really it’s a darn shame....but it’s reality.

When I have honestly not given a darn I have been much more successful with women. The reality for a lot of us is however, that we do care, but when we do it stuffs up our game. It is part of the reason why we can all get the girl’s we don’t want.

So how am I learning to deal with this? Well, “For want of a better word, not giving a “stuff” works.” Not giving a stuff is good, especially at the start, and it is only later when she has proved that she is worth giving a stuff about that you should then consider doing so.

For many our problem is.......we in short, care too early, and why would an alpha with lots of options care early? He wouldn’t.

Countermart

My friends that are naturals are just like what you described. They are not necessarily "bad boys" they really don't overly care about women.

Actually, no. They LOVE women but they are not outcome obsessed. That is the key in my opinion. If I talk to a woman and am constantly thinking "will she go for me?" or "will she fuk me later?" she will pick up on that. But once I release attachment to an outcome and THEN talk to her I will do much better.

Thats why guys who have girlfriends seem to draw girls to them like magnets. Cause the guys with gf's already are not outcome dependant when speaking to a hot single girl. They don't care if they get laid or get the phone number....

Its funny - the afc chases the nice, intelligent and beautiful woman, the nice, intelligent and beautiful woman chases the "bad boy", and the badboy goes for the sexy blonde lifeguard. The sexy lifeguard secretly wants the afc but wishes he would grow a set.

Its a vicious circle....

countermart said:

The great paradox of women, is that they are draw to men that do not care about them and commonly repelled by those that do...yes, the challenge, bad boy, and all the rest of it...really it’s a darn shame....but it’s reality.

Click to expand...

No great paradox, really. Women are genetically programmed to seek men that are good at acquiring resources. Not giving a rip is an indication of a deep self confidence of acquiring resources.

AFC's, on the other hand, suck at acquiring resources. Too much importance placed on a woman is an indication of neediness, or a lack of self confidence in acquiring resources.

That is why it is the same in business, as you suggest. If you exhibit characteristics of acquiring resources, people will want to go into business with you. If you are desperate for a paycheck, it's hard to get hired.

Law of the jungle. Those who have, get more.

If you combine a deep self confidence of acquiring resources, and a true pleasure and enjoyment in interacting with women regardless of the outcome, you've got it made.

I don't think it's not about not caring or just being able to get resources. Women just want a mentally stable and secure guy. They just want somebody that they don't have to baby, don't have to worry about the guy just leaving them because the weather changes, and won't kill them in their sleep. Guys who can do those three things are usually productive members of society and won't self destruct when things go bad. The thing about some guys is that they are creepy because they try to too hard after just meeting a woman or they just don't act like men. A guy can not care about folks, but that comes with being a sociopath. A wimp can make a lot of money, but that doesn't make him a good man. A stable guy may not win at everything, but you can count on him to at least try to do something.

taiyuu_otoko said:

No great paradox, really. Women are genetically programmed to seek men that are good at acquiring resources. Not giving a rip is an indication of a deep self confidence of acquiring resources.

Click to expand...

You been bingeing out on those evolutionary psych paperbacks again ?
Not giving a 'rip' may also be a symptom of Narcissistic Personality disorder. NPDs have no empathy or regard for the impact of their actions on others.
There are no 'pat' answers to any of these questions.

Do men of abundant resources, or let us say men without genuine worries truly give a f*ck?

guru1000 said:

Do men of abundant resources, or let us say men without genuine worries truly give a f*ck?

Click to expand...

I know two very successful men who are total puZZies when it comes to women. These are guys who are "men of abundant resources" ..But, not only are they fawning, drooling idiots when it comes to women, they flaunt their wealth in appalling displays of cringeworthy stupidity. These two guys are arrogant and vain.

These two guys believe that dangling shiny objects in front of women is the key. They attract brassy golddiggers but continuously fail to draw quality women... and can't figue out why.

On the other hand I know a guy who is 47 years old and has a civil service job and lives in a one bedroom appt. He drives a 1993 Toyota and is a Master Playa. HE is short and chubby BUT he has his game well drilled.. He is attentive, polite and a 'gentleman' and gets a lot of action.
If he tried to be 'cool' and 'indifferent ' to the point of "not iving a f*k" ,he would be blown off every time.

IT is all just a mystery sometimes.

jophil28 said:

I know two very successful men who are total puZZies when it comes to women. These are guys who are "men of abundant resources" ..But, not only are they fawning, drooling idiots when it comes to women, they flaunt their wealth in appalling displays of cringeworthy stupidity. These two guys are arrogant and vain.

These two guys believe that dangling shiny objects in front of women is the key. They attract brassy golddiggers but continuously fail to draw quality women... and can't figue out why.

On the other hand I know a guy who is 47 years old and has a civil service job and lives in a one bedroom appt. He drives a 1993 Toyota and is a Master Playa. HE is short and chubby BUT he has his game well drilled.. He is attentive, polite and a 'gentleman' and gets a lot of action.
If he tried to be 'cool' and 'indifferent ' to the point of "not iving a f*k" ,he would be blown off every time.

IT is all just a mystery sometimes.

Click to expand...

Genuinely being worry free or let us say in a state of genuinely not giving a f*ck does not suggest a certain type of person. It is a state of mind. It depicts a state of not being slave to an outcome.

Looking a little deeper, if two men were to take a vacation. One with financial worries and another with a big nest egg, question is who could reach this state easier.

I can only speak from personal experience. When my finances are right, I could care less about anything much less outcomes.

Granted bums have the uncanny ability to be broke and care less. Only problem with this scenario, he is misguided of what truly needs to be in order not to worry.

Funny how this thread has been on here for quite some time with no response and then bang. No I haven’t been reading those “evolutionary psych paperbacks”, I haven't evolved enough to learn how to read ha, ha, also my thread has nothing to do with resources and female attraction to guys with them or without them.

I am simply making the observation based on meeting quite a few naturals over the years that a common trait is that they do not care about the outcome, and more than that, they commonly do not care about the chick either.

Who cares more, the Alpha male or the AFC? The Alpha does not care about the individual approach outcome or the chick and so it is psychologically easier for him to act and risk. For the AFC his whole self value is tied up on approaching and risking rejection, he cares about the outcome. Also he has commonly built the chick up to pedestal status without even meeting her. But the Alpha does not care, why care with someone you have just met? Why would her actions do anything to your psychological value as a man? Why do you assume her decisions are correct? Why would you care when you have choices?

In fact, naturals I have known go the other way they commonly completely downgrade the chick in their minds. As someone wrote here about a natural they knew, when he crashes and burns he’d say stuff like, “I’ve gotta stop hitting on all these lesbo chicks.” Other guys I have know would stay stuff like, “After s*crewing her I threw her out in the morning she was as dumb as “f”.”

My point is that these guys did not care, yet they were very successful with women. My own experience is when I have been, “I don’t care, blow me or blow me out” it has also worked for me. I do not like it that way, but it works. OK you can define this as classic “bad boy”, but all it is in the end is not giving a stuff about the outcome or her.

jophil28: “If he tried to be 'cool' and 'indifferent ' to the point of "not giving a f*k" ,he would be blown off every time.”

It isn’t about being “cool and indifferent” at all, the naturals I have known totally go for what they want. They are not “cool and indifferent” they go for what they want without apology and without consideration for the chick, but they do not care if they succeed or not. Their attitude is very much she is just another chick, there is very little emotional investment. For the AFC there is great emotional investment.

Soylent Green “My friends that are naturals are just like what you described. They are not necessarily "bad boys" they really don't overly care about women.

Actually, no. They LOVE women but they are not outcome obsessed. That is the key in my opinion. If I talk to a woman and am constantly thinking "will she go for me?" or "will she fuk me later?" she will pick up on that. But once I release attachment to an outcome and THEN talk to her I will do much better.”

Soylent Green gets it.

Not caring conveys an abundance of choice and empowers you to try.

Try it and you will see. But be careful if you go down this road, you can morph into a mentality you cannot get out of easily and that will potentially damage you when the one decent LTR girl in 100 comes along.

Countermart

jophil28 said:

Not giving a 'rip' may also be a symptom of Narcissistic Personality disorder. NPDs have no empathy or regard for the impact of their actions on others.

Click to expand...

Women do seem to fall for these men very easily.

guru1000 said:

Granted bums have the uncanny ability to be broke and care less. Only problem with this scenario, he is misguided of what truly needs to be in order not to worry.

Click to expand...

The problem I have found is that too many women are unable to tell between the bums/NPD's and the men who have actually earned their self-confidence.

Luthor Rex said:

Women do seem to fall for these men very easily.



The problem I have found is that too many women are unable to tell between the bums/NPD's and the men who have actually earned their self-confidence.

Click to expand...

And that is the truth. Why do so many women lack the ability to discern ?

Are we similarly afflicted by an inability to accept or reject authenticity?
Do men find "tits by DuPont" equally as arousing as the real thing(s) even when we sleep next to the damn things seven nights a weeK ?

The concept is called "Detached from Outcome." It is fairly simple and is as old as the hills. Yes we all know anecdotal stories about poor guys with game and rich AFC's.

One thing people sometimes miss is that the ability to "detach from outcome" in one area of life oftentimes doesn't transfer over into other areas.

Being detached from outcome allows you to "be in the present" so that all your resources are available to you, and you handle whatever situation you are in better than some fool who is worrying about what's gonna happen.

One certain way to "detach from outcome" is to have solid confidence in your ability to attain resources, so if the present situation doesn't pan out, you will always get what you want later. And when I say resources, I mean money, pu$$y, time, whatever it is that you value.

Keep in mind that "detach from outcome" does not mean "devalue the outcome", as bums and neurotics do. You need to balance your appreciation and understand of value of the resource in question, while at same time focusing on your ability to attain it in a general sense, to the point where the localized manifestation of the resource that is sitting in front of you doesn't matter.

It really is that simple. If you can "detach from outcome" you wont' be fazed by sh!t tests, flakes or anything that threatens to suck those of lesser experience into AFC-ness.

Dig deep and find the confidence that exists beneath ALL of what you want in life, detach from outcome, appreciate all that is available, and all is yours.

Those that achieve true mastery in life see all as practice of self discovery, and see each experience as an opportunity to learn and improve.

jophil28 said:

Are we similarly afflicted by an inability to accept or reject authenticity? Do men find "tits by DuPont" equally as arousing as the real thing(s) even when we sleep next to the damn things seven nights a weeK ?

Click to expand...

That's a very good question that I've thought about now and then.

Take these women here: http://misterirrelevant.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/04/missusagirls.jpg

Or these: http://www.aolcdn.com/vegaspop/miss-america-luxe-life.jpg

I find them to be completely unappealing. I realize most men will think I'm lying, but it's the truth. I look at them and... well I can't put it into words very well... but something just looks unnatural about them. Something about them also makes me think they look old. Like I said, I wish I could put it into words better, but these are not women I would ever want to date.

The truth is I find a woman like this one: Stokke to be far and away much prettier than any of those beauty pageant winners. She looks "real" and "natural"... like she has a soul... I don't know exactly, but I'd rather see women like her around.

Hell I think Sarah Silverman looks better than the pageant women. Here are some other women I prefer as well. There seems to be some kind of theme in that last group of pictures.

While I'm sure that all women put effort into how they look, there is this line that some women cross which turns them into some kind of abomination.

It really makes me wonder too about the long term evolutionary effect of our modern world -- the men who pick "fake" women over the men who pick "real" women.

Luthor Rex said:

Here are some other women I prefer as well. There seems to be some kind of theme in that last group of pictures.

Click to expand...

Yeah there is a theme...they're all like 16.

Borderline inappropriate, man.

Colossus said:

Yeah there is a theme...they're all like 16.

Borderline inappropriate, man.

Click to expand...

They're in uniforms, it's not like they were nude.

Here are some old women for ya:

http://bzupages.com/f17/some-hollywood-actress-caught-without-makeup-645/

http://www.2dorks.com/gallery/2005/makeup/makeup7.jpg

http://seehere.blogspot.com/2006/08/celebrities-without-makeup.html

I agree that being non-outcome dependant makes life a lot easier. It's possible to aquire harems of women while being outcome obsessed but you sure as hell aren't going to be stable that way because it is an obsession, way too important to your ego, and all consuming. Much better to be laid back and just whatever. There is plenty of ***** to go around, more than I can ever find time to **** so no reason to be trippin. My .02

Originally Posted by jophil28
Not giving a 'rip' may also be a symptom of Narcissistic Personality disorder. NPDs have no empathy or regard for the impact of their actions on others.

Luthor Rex said:

Women do seem to fall for these men very easily.

Click to expand...

This has probably already been brought up here, but there was a study done in 2008 which showed that men with narcissistic psychopathic traits tend to have more sex.

"NICE guys knew it, now two studies have confirmed it: bad boys get the most girls. The finding may help explain why a nasty suite of antisocial personality traits known as the "dark triad" persists in the human population, despite their potentially grave cultural costs. The traits are the self-obsession of narcissism; the impulsive, thrill-seeking and callous behaviour of psychopaths; and the deceitful and exploitative nature of Machiavellianism. At their extreme, these traits would be highly detrimental for life in traditional human societies. People with these personalities risk being shunned by others and shut out of relationships, leaving them without a mate, hungry and vulnerable to predators.

But being just slightly evil could have an upside: a prolific sex life, says Peter Jonason at New Mexico State University in Las Cruces. "We have some evidence that the three traits are really the same thing and may represent a successful evolutionary strategy." Jonason and his colleagues subjected 200 college students to personality tests designed to rank them for each of the dark triad traits. They also asked about their attitudes to sexual relationships and about their sex lives, including how many partners they'd had and whether they were seeking brief affairs. High 'dark triad' scorers are more likely to try to poach other people's partners for a brief affair.

The study found that those who scored higher on the dark triad personality traits tended to have more partners and more desire for short-term relationships, Jonason reported at the Human Behavior and Evolution Society meeting in Kyoto, Japan, earlier this month. But the correlation only held in males." http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg19826614.100-bad-guys-really-do-get-the-most-girls.html

The hard part is not giving a f*ck about women to the point where you can do what you want with them, but not so far as to the point where you don't even WANT to do anything with them.

omkara said:

Originally Posted by jophil28
Not giving a 'rip' may also be a symptom of Narcissistic Personality disorder. NPDs have no empathy or regard for the impact of their actions on others.



This has probably already been brought up here, but there was a study done in 2008 which showed that men with narcissistic psychopathic traits tend to have more sex.

"NICE guys knew it, now two studies have confirmed it: bad boys get the most girls. The finding may help explain why a nasty suite of antisocial personality traits known as the "dark triad" persists in the human population, despite their potentially grave cultural costs. The traits are the self-obsession of narcissism; the impulsive, thrill-seeking and callous behaviour of psychopaths; and the deceitful and exploitative nature of Machiavellianism. At their extreme, these traits would be highly detrimental for life in traditional human societies. People with these personalities risk being shunned by others and shut out of relationships, leaving them without a mate, hungry and vulnerable to predators.

But being just slightly evil could have an upside: a prolific sex life, says Peter Jonason at New Mexico State University in Las Cruces. "We have some evidence that the three traits are really the same thing and may represent a successful evolutionary strategy." Jonason and his colleagues subjected 200 college students to personality tests designed to rank them for each of the dark triad traits. They also asked about their attitudes to sexual relationships and about their sex lives, including how many partners they'd had and whether they were seeking brief affairs. High 'dark triad' scorers are more likely to try to poach other people's partners for a brief affair.

The study found that those who scored higher on the dark triad personality traits tended to have more partners and more desire for short-term relationships, Jonason reported at the Human Behavior and Evolution Society meeting in Kyoto, Japan, earlier this month. But the correlation only held in males." http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg19826614.100-bad-guys-really-do-get-the-most-girls.html

Click to expand...

AFC's can adopt traits of this behavior without becoming nasty jerks. It's simple. Embrace the trait aspects and forget the deep evil.

Becoming non-outcome dependent is a self-image and confidence issue that comes with personal growth. Some guys don't have to deal with it like other guys do. Even many of the younger jerks.


Luther posted something interesting above that has always intrigued me about how I look at women.

There are the 'glamourous, gorgeous, beautiful women.

There are the HOT women.

The first always drew me in but I couldn't ever imagine really getting physical pleasure from them. It was this weird abyss that just huing there and was like a disconnect in my head.

The second group lit me on fire!!!