attitude on sosuave

[Unprez]

ok..been exactly a yr since joining this and i have to say that it changed my life.....and i think most ppl did benefit from joining this site not just in terms of having mroe game but just improving as a man...mroe stronger , confident, more focused in life and not girls... but i also see that alot of ppl dont use this site to grow but just to complain and 'vent'... venting is fine but make it clear ur venting and not giving some negative bitter advise....so called DJs seem to think that just cuz a girl he dated cheated on him that he should advise others of some bitter stupid advice...eg that oh if a girl ur dating has a guy friend that she is probably on his **** whenever ur not around or that oh if a girl is driving a long distance to meet u is cuz she is secreatly tryin to cheat on her man........ yes a lot of woman do not have morals but to genearalize is act of stupidity and traits of an AFC and WILL NOT HELP YOU GAME OTHER WOMAN.... and yet everyone always comments on saying face the reality if a girl doesn't pick up its cuz she is having sex with another guy cuz that what happened to meetc etc.... this is horrible AFC advice...... all i gotta say is that the senior DJs should not stop sayin so many stupid negative comments cuz it just feeds into the idea that this site is woman hater site...AND IT IS NOT...I believe that part of being a DJ is cheerful, spontanous, confident, respectfull towards everyone including woman.....yes woman do not like nice guys but there is a difference between respect and being a jerk and a concept that older men should know...yes some woman deserve to be treated like **** and cuz they like it, some don't deserve it and don't like it.... dont generalize!...... like really we all have mothers, daughters, sisters why the fk are ppl sayin that yea 'every' girl is horny and is willin to fk anyone who play the right moves.... im sorry but i do not think that every fkn woman cheats.....proper advise to anybody is prepare for the worst but hope for the best.....i'll end by sayin that it is safe to say that most men have gotten burned includin myself and i have been told taht i am miserable at times....but I try not to be at all let alone breed any bitterness towards others who post advice...........chill ppl

[speed dawg]

Can you not see the forest for the trees or something?

And also, if you want to be taken seriously, quit typing like a text message.

I know, I know. Again, it's rocket science.

[horaholic]

I definitely see your point, and I'm guilty myself. The fact of the matter is, however, that more often than not, the OP's on these threads, are being naive, and pushovers, and the girl in question, is doing shady shyt. Yes, of course people jump the gun, and say NEXT, or she's fvcking someone else, without knowing or really reading. I try to point the OP the SIGNS of infidelity, rather than say "shes cheating." You should have posted this in the general discussion. This is the Mature Man section, and there is much less of that going on in here. Of course the posters in here are USUALLY a little wiser than the general discussion, and dont need the usual advice anyway.

Besides, I think that people who have had it happen to them, can look back at the signs that they missed, and know what they're talking about. Guys who are in the situation, are usually too pvssyblind to see whats going on, and they need guys on here, with our unbiased opinion to slap them in the face. Noone know the OP, or the girl in question, so we use our own judgement, as black and white as it is. Personally, I try to put myself in both parties shoes, as it is more important, that the guy knows what HE'S doing wrong with himself. That fact that the guy is posting on here at all means A: He's willing to learn, and B: There is a problem and there is an illogical female involved, who is probably not willing or able to accept any responsibility for it.

People need to be a little less hasty, about nexting, and 'she's cheating,' but more times than not, they have a point.

[Mr. Me]

Besides, I think that people who have had it happen to them, can look back at the signs that they missed, and know what they're talking about.

Exactly. Wrap your brains around this: a guy goes through, let's say, three marriages and divorces. A younger guy will look at that and say, "why should I listen to you? You had three marriage fail. Instead, I'll take advice from a guy I know that's been married for 30 years to the same woman."

However, the guy who's been divorced three times may actually by now have learned somethings of value, having learned from his failures and life lessons. There's no guarantee he's learned his lessons and has pearls of wisdom to spout, but his words will either have that ring of truth or not. And the guy whose been married to one woman for thirty years may just be a submissive chump who just goes along with whatever wifey does.

I know I wizened up a lot from my divorce. My relationship went badly and I wanted to help make sure it doesn't happen to me again. In the process, I learned a lot. I saw where I went off course. I can look at my failed relationships and say if they hadn't failed, I would be a lot less savvy today. And also, without having had the length of time to go through so many girls over the years, I probably wouldn't have sufficient data via personal experience to be able to connect the dots of female behavior. Wish I could age real slowly remaining youngish and go on to 200 to be able to keep putting into practice what I've become aware of after all these years.

[guru1000]

However, the guy who's been divorced three times may actually by now have learned somethings of value, having learned from his failures and life lessons.

True indeed. The wise generally have the most battle scars.

To the OP,

You might feel many of us jump the gun by creating an immediate exit strategy. What a lot of inexperienced young men miss is that many of the red flags and warning signs that rear their ugly head in the beginning will inevitably develop into the end.

It is best to to expend your energies with women who have high IL in you and appreciate your time. When you run into the reverse scenario, you are simply expending your valuable time into a rapport that is counter productive.

I for one have always been surrounded by women. But with as many women as I have been with in my 20's, I am much wiser in my 30's.

To be successful, you must KNOW where to spend your time and energy. Sometimes NEXTing is the best route a young man can take to his final destination.

[Rollo Tomassi]

One of the surest indicators of an AFC mindset is the automatic presumption that anything remotely critical a man would say about women is equated with misogyny. All a man need do is open his mouth, in the most objective way he can muster, about anything critical of the feminine and he's instantly suspect of sour grapes. He must've been burned, or is bitter and on the verge of desperation just for even a passing mention.

What an amazingly potent social convention that is - when a man will censor himself because of it on his own. The most successful social conventions are ones in which the subject willingly sublimates his own interests, discourages questioning it, and predisposes that person to encourage the convention with others.

AFCs are crabs in a barrel. As soon as one climbs up to the top to escape, 10 more clamber over him to pull him back in.

[GuanYu]

I can see where you're coming from Unprez, but the fact of the matter is that in most cases when people suggest exiting it's because they can tell somethings not right.

I'll use your example of having male friends. Not sure about you, but if I'm in an LTR with a chick she shouldn't be casually hanging out with guys unless they're in a group (with other girls) or something similar. Under no conditions is it right for a woman in a relationship to do lunch with John or go have a drink with Phil. Those guys may say they're friends but we all know the real story behind that. Unless the dude is gay the majority of guys hooking up with women in some way want to have sex with her. Would you want your girlfriend hanging out with guys that want to have sex with her?

Also. from what I've read this sight is all about empowering the man. Make yourself the true force in the relationship with the balls to cut loose when the frame is compromised. Nexting a girl for obvious disrespect goes along with this. Keeping a woman around that's constantly disrespecting or damaging the frame is a losing battle.

[Ollie]

I can see where you're coming from Unprez, but the fact of the matter is that in most cases when people suggest exiting it's because they can tell somethings not right.

I'll use your example of having male friends. Not sure about you, but if I'm in an LTR with a chick she shouldn't be casually hanging out with guys unless they're in a group (with other girls) or something similar. Under no conditions is it right for a woman in a relationship to do lunch with John or go have a drink with Phil. Those guys may say they're friends but we all know the real story behind that. Unless the dude is gay the majority of guys hooking up with women in some way want to have sex with her. Would you want your girlfriend hanging out with guys that want to have sex with her?

Also. from what I've read this sight is all about empowering the man. Make yourself the true force in the relationship with the balls to cut loose when the frame is compromised. Nexting a girl for obvious disrespect goes along with this. Keeping a woman around that's constantly disrespecting or damaging the frame is a losing battle.

Where do you live, Iran? I totally disagree with this. I have no problem at all with a girl I'm in a relationship with having guy friends. Let me ask you this...do you ever hang out casually with girls when dating someone?

I have no problem if the guys she's out with want to have sex with her either. If I'm in a relationship with a girl I trust her, and if I can't trust her to go out for lunch with a guy friend without trying to fvck him, why would I want to be with her in the first place? I don't own the girl, she's with me because she wants to be, and if she finds someone else or loses interest I'll remind her where the door is. To me, your ideas show how insecure you are with yourself and your relationships and I think you should work on your confidence.

[guru1000]

I have no problem if the guys she's out with want to have sex with her either. If I'm in a relationship with a girl I trust her, and if I can't trust her to go out for lunch with a guy friend without trying to fvck him, why would I want to be with her in the first place? I don't own the girl, she's with me because she wants to be, and if she finds someone else or loses interest I'll remind her where the door is. To me, your ideas show how insecure you are with yourself and your relationships and I think you should work on your confidence.

Let us know how this exclusive relationship of yours works out.

[taiyuu_otoko]

One of the surest indicators of an AFC mindset is the automatic presumption that anything remotely critical a man would say about women is equated with misogyny.

I'd argue that one of the surest indicators of an AFC mindset is actually having a need to discuss anything remotely critical about a woman. She either fits your criteria, and you're happy, or she doesn't and you move on. Don't blame women if you don't know what your criteria are, nor have the strategies to fullfill you criteria.


What an amazingly potent social convention that is - when a man will censor himself because of it on his own. The most successful social conventions are ones in which the subject willingly sublimates his own interests, discourages questioning it, and predisposes that person to encourage the convention with others.

That's how all memes are spread. Mind viruses. Most thoughts in your mind are not yours, they were put there by others, and you accepted them.
And they spread not becasue of truth but because of their effecacy in reproduction.

AFCs are crabs in a barrel. As soon as one climbs up to the top to escape, 10 more clamber over him to pull him back in.

I'd argue that most people, like AFC's are really followers. They are not really trying to pull the poor fukker back into the barrel, they just want to follow the leader wherever the leader is going, but unfortunately he cannot bear the weight of his buddies hanging on like Klingons around Uranus.

[slaog]

Where do you live, Iran? I totally disagree with this. I have no problem at all with a girl I'm in a relationship with having guy friends. Let me ask you this...do you ever hang out casually with girls when dating someone?

I have no problem if the guys she's out with want to have sex with her either. If I'm in a relationship with a girl I trust her, and if I can't trust her to go out for lunch with a guy friend without trying to fvck him, why would I want to be with her in the first place? I don't own the girl, she's with me because she wants to be, and if she finds someone else or loses interest I'll remind her where the door is. To me, your ideas show how insecure you are with yourself and your relationships and I think you should work on your confidence.


I trust my girlfriend too but lets be realistic here. Why would you be OK with men trying to have sex with her? The real question is why would she want to meet them in the first place if she knows they're after her. It isn't for friendship. If a woman was sensible she'd avoid men who wants to have sex with her because it would make her feel uncomfortable.


Let me ask you this...do you ever hang out casually with girls when dating someone?


If you knew she was trying to have sex with you, would you be totally 100% honest with yourself and pretend it's OK and nothing will definetly not happen? Thats presuming you liked the girl. If it was an ugly girl who wanted sex it would make you feel really uncomfortable and you'd want to avoid her.


There was a similar thread (http://www.sosuave.net/forum/showthread.php?t=156157) early dealing with this issue.

[samspade]

Would you want your girlfriend hanging out with guys that want to have sex with her?

News flash: Your girlfriend, if she is remotely attractive, will encounter and interact with men who want to have sex with her every hour of every day of her life. You will not control that by regulating her lunches and cocktails.

[samspade]

The real question is why would she want to meet them in the first place if she knows they're after her. It isn't for friendship. If a woman was sensible she'd avoid men who wants to have sex with her because it would make her feel uncomfortable.

I see what you are saying here, but I disagree a little. Women are notorious for allowing male lapdogs hang around them whenever possible. A lot of these guys THINK they have a shot with her, but in her eyes he's a woman with a penis who strokes her ego. I oughta know; back when I was an AFC idiot I hung out with other guys' girlfriends way too often. :o

I agree that a line in the sand needs to be drawn, but I don't think that completely banning public get-togethers with her male friends will make you look very secure or confident.

[slaog]

News flash: Your girlfriend, if she is remotely attractive, will encounter and interact with men who want to have sex with her every hour of every day of her life. You will not control that by regulating her lunches and cocktails.


But she doesn't have to hang out and go to dinners with them.

[guru1000]

but I don't think that completely banning public get-togethers with her male friends will make you look very secure or confident.

Here is a classical mistake.

There is a difference between APPEARING secure and BEING secure.

I can argue that any SECURE man would not have exclusive relations with a woman with male friends. An AW is of no interest to him. A woman who needs the attention of other men in addition to you is not Quality material. We can say that any man who chooses to be with a girl that requires male friend attention is insecure and scarce in options. After all if he had many options, he would not invest himself into lower quality.

Fact of the matter is a secure or confident man will only play a relationship by his rules. If those rules should include his exclusive woman having male friends, he SHOULD reevaluate his standards.

[STR8UP]

First off, don't listen to this "If your g/f so much as talks to another guy while she's dating you, DUMP HER" crap.

If I started seriously dating a chick and she told me that I could no longer speak with any of the other women I know I would tell her to get lost, so why should it be any different if she has male friends? The hypocrisy around here kills me sometimes....

Part of what keeps a relationship together is MAINTAINING YOUR INDIVIDUAL IDENTITIES. Suddenly breaking your routines by shunning friends of the opposite sex, "staying in" every weekend, and all that other stuff that happens when people get into relationships is the beginning of the end.

Fact is, it has NOTHING to do with one other man or a hundred other men. It has to do with the way your woman REACTS to other men. There is nothing wrong with her having male friends, same as there is nothing wrong with you having female friends while in a relationship. The only thing that matters is how she interacts with them.

Does she have lunch with a male coworker from time to time? Big deal.

Lunch with her ex fiancee? Time to find a new woman.

See the difference?

There's a big difference between drawing reasonable boundaries and trying to lock someone in a cage. Women are going to do what they are going to do. The only control you have over this is keeping HER attraction level for you UP.

There is no doubt in my mind that these guys who claim to draw all of these constricting boundaries with their women would be SHOCKED and APPALLED to know how much their women hide from them so they APPEAR to conform.

Oh, and to the OP....learn how to type. I didn't even bother to read your post.

[samspade]

There is a difference between APPEARING secure and BEING secure.

I can argue that any SECURE man would not have exclusive relations with a woman with male friends. An AW is of no interest to him. A woman who needs the attention of other men in addition to you is not Quality material. We can say that any man who chooses to be with a girl that requires male friend attention is insecure and scarce in options. After all if he had many options, he would not invest himself into lower quality.

Fact of the matter is a secure or confident man will only play a relationship by his rules. If those rules should include his exclusive woman having male friends, he SHOULD reevaluate his standards.

I agree that there is a difference between appearing and being secure...that was a slip of the tongue (and not a Freudian one, I assure you).

But your opinion is couched on the notion that any woman with even one male friend is an AW and low quality. This is specious reasoning and untrue.

[samspade]

There's a big difference between drawing reasonable boundaries and trying to lock someone in a cage. Women are going to do what they are going to do. The only control you have over this is keeping HER attraction level for you UP.

There is no doubt in my mind that these guys who claim to draw all of these constricting boundaries with their women would be SHOCKED and APPALLED to know how much their women hide from them so they APPEAR to conform.

Could not have said it better. Insecure attempts to control her will only diminish her respect for you and drive her into the arms of someone else - probably someone different than the one you were suspecting, anyway.

[guru1000]

And I here I am with no history of exclusive relationships with male friends.

Is it my Control or Selection?

Funny how those with the most women issues seem to be accepting of ANY woman.

[samspade]

And I here I am with no history of exclusive relationships with male friends.

Is it my Control or Selection?

Neither. It's obliviousness and/or ignorance to reality. A lot of proud fathers' daughters are virgins their whole lives, too.

[GuanYu]

Where do you live, Iran?
Virginia actually.

I totally disagree with this. I have no problem at all with a girl I'm in a relationship with having guy friends. Let me ask you this...do you ever hang out casually with girls when dating someone?
Yep, I sure do but when I was in exclusive LTR I had enough respect for my woman not to do 1-on-1 dates (or "hang outs") with other women. Confident women don't put up with that just like confident men shouldn't.

I have no problem if the guys she's out with want to have sex with her either. If I'm in a relationship with a girl I trust her, and if I can't trust her to go out for lunch with a guy friend without trying to fvck him, why would I want to be with her in the first place?
If you were doing what you're suppose to be doing in an LTR she wouldn't be curious and want to go hang out with other guys period. If she does then she's definitely not long term material since she's an AW.
I don't own the girl, she's with me because she wants to be, and if she finds someone else or loses interest I'll remind her where the door is. To me, your ideas show how insecure you are with yourself and your relationships and I think you should work on your confidence.

I beg to differ, sir. This kind of mindset shows my confidence to select the right kind of woman. I don't go for just any woman and certainly don't waste my time with AW's. If she feels the need to go 1-on-1 with other guys that's a problem. I never said I had a problem with her having male friends or interactions - I don't control women. But I do expect some respect (no dates with other guys) just as she should expect from me.

There is no doubt in my mind that these guys who claim to draw all of these constricting boundaries with their women would be SHOCKED and APPALLED to know how much their women hide from them so they APPEAR to conform.
I couldn't agree more, but you mentioned it yourself. What's the difference between doing lunch with an ex fiance and some random dude that wants to get her in the sack? There has to be certain boundaries and if needed the couple should discuss those and compromise. That lowers the chance of someone screwing up because they "didn't know" or thought it "wasn't a big deal". Just like it's not cool to go to the club every weekend with the boys if you're in a serious relationship. There must be guidelines.

[jophil28]

A woman who needs the attention of other men in addition to you is not Quality material.

Ding !
And therefore I would add that such a woman is not someone whom a man should consider for an LTR.

[STR8UP]

Neither. It's obliviousness and/or ignorance to reality. A lot of proud fathers' daughters are virgins their whole lives, too.

It's a lot easier to pretend that "My girl is different" than acknowledge the fact that they are all pretty much the same.

There are times where I do wish I could step back into lala land for awhile though.

Unfortunately it's usually either hope and disappointment or realization and apathy.

[Rollo Tomassi]

Getting back the OP's original thought, I understand what your interpretation is, all I'm asking you to do is ask yourself why you'd think they were "bitter"? This is a feminine social convention that's in the same vein as shame. Any guy that has a point about the feminine, no matter how valid, can always have his argument poisoned because he's a guy and most guys are frustrated that they aren't getting laid and this is his petty way of venting. Of course, the same can be used with women, but it's never as valid because they play the role of sexual filter. We can point out bitter women, but the feminine default is to always be cast in the victim role, so even if they are bitter it's always justified.

I'm just asking you think about it, because, when men can be convinced to participate in women's social conventions half their work is done for them.

[guru1000]

Neither. It's obliviousness and/or ignorance to reality.

Or just maybe a different reality.

Donald Trump is a fictitious character because he is successful.

It's a lot easier to pretend that "My girl is different" than acknowledge the fact that they are all pretty much the same.

Says the guy who doesn't believe in absolutes.

[slaog]

First off, don't listen to this "If your g/f so much as talks to another guy while she's dating you, DUMP HER" crap.



There was a thread a while back asking could men and women be genuine friends. After reading that thread I came to the conclusion that they can only be friends if there is no sexual interest there. Thats why alot of women like to have gay men as friends.


My GF told me a few weeks ago that she had lunch (in McDonalds) with a guy. He is a neighbour of hers and they have known each other since kindergarden. I didn't see a problem with that because she sees him as a friend only.


I let her know though that its only appropiate in certain circumstances and she agreed and she also said she wouldn't like it if I was having meals with women. So at least she understands where I'm coming from.

[Mr. Me]

Outside of AWs, if she's having one on one lunches with other males, be they co-workers or not, then she's there for a reason. And it's not for the food, it's for the company, and by "company" I mean him. Even if it's innocent, it opens a door to what can be a slippery slope. That's the world we live in, and that's what can happen. And it does happen. Lots.

So, compare that to a woman who, when a co-worker or ex or guy at a bar or whoever says, "hey, how about we grab a bite to eat together you and me?" she says, "Oh, thanks, but no" because she's loyal to you. She knows he's not asking because of the food.

Love, gentlemen, is based on respect. If she really loves you, she needs to respect you. Not go off having drinks or lunch dates with other men, that's not respectful nor loving.

So you can be secure and confident and let her do whatever the f@ck she wants to do, and yes, you should be like that. But when you see what the f@ck she wants to do is hang with another man, know what you're looking at is disrespect.

[guru1000]

If she really loves you, she needs to respect you. Not go off having drinks or lunch dates with other men, that's not respectful nor loving.

But when you see what the f@ck she wants to do is hang with another man, know what you're looking at is disrespect.

Careful. Some people here believe a call back is enough respect.

[STR8UP]

Outside of AWs, if she's having one on one lunches with other males, be they co-workers or not, then she's there for a reason. And it's not for the food, it's for the company, and by "company" I mean him. Even if it's innocent, it opens a door to what can be a slippery slope. That's the world we live in, and that's what can happen. And it does happen. Lots.

So, compare that to a woman who, when a co-worker or ex or guy at a bar or whoever says, "hey, how about we grab a bite to eat together you and me?" she says, "Oh, thanks, but no" because she's loyal to you. She knows he's not asking because of the food.

Love, gentlemen, is based on respect. If she really loves you, she needs to respect you. Not go off having drinks or lunch dates with other men, that's not respectful nor loving.

So you can be secure and confident and let her do whatever the f@ck she wants to do, and yes, you should be like that. But when you see what the f@ck she wants to do is hang with another man, know what you're looking at is disrespect.

Here's the problem. That "door" is open as soon as she leaves the house.

This whole concept of your woman not being able to have male friends under any circumstances is ridiculous. If you don't allow your woman to have male friends then you might as well tell her she can't work. You think having lunch with a guy she's known for years before you met her is any different than her working late hours on a project with a male co-worker? It's "OK" if she's paid to hang out with a guy, huh? Not much logic there. I suppose you could argue that the "work dynamic" might help keep things in check, but I think I heard somewhere that the majority of affairs women have are with coworkers, so that defense is pretty weak.

I am Man enough not to be insecure about my woman, and I am smart enough to be able to spot disrespect. I don't need to start thumping my chest and draw lines in the sand to "keep my woman in line". She's gonna do what she's gonna do. The more you try to put her in a cage the more she's going to fight you.

The point is, there is no "fine line" between respect and disrespect. If you are with a disrespectful woman and you allow her to disrespect you, you deserve what you get.

And there's a big difference between "lunch dates" and catching up with an old friend. Your woman should know the difference and should not cross the line, and you should know how to SPOT the difference in case she does.

[jophil28]

Outside of AWs, if she's having one on one lunches with other males, be they co-workers or not, then she's there for a reason. And it's not for the food, it's for the company, and by "company" I mean him...




...and "company " is translated as the buzz that another source of male attention provides her.
At this point, she has turned OUTSIDE your LTR to be in the company of another man for emotionally rewarding reasons. YOU have been forgotten in the process and discarded for the duration of her lunch. She sure isn't telling him how much you mean to her. . She is there for an ego boost and she is willing to place your relationship at risk.

Technically, she has now positioned herself at the 'mild' end of the cheating continuum.

[jophil28]

Your woman should know the difference and should not cross the line, and you should know how to SPOT the difference in case she does.

Two problem with all your "shoulds" here...

Firstly women have no clear " lines" as we men know them . They create what is OK, or not OK " on the run " according to how they "feel" and how immediately gratifying the situation is TO THEM.

You, of all people, should know this from your recent history with a variety of AWs and fakes and flakes.

Secondly, a woman who is having lunches with a "male "friend" is hardly likely to tell you, at least initially, so how are you going to know what is going on in order to "SPOT the difference .." ??

[Unprez]

Oh, and to the OP....learn how to type. I didn't even bother to read your post.
I'll keep that in mind to know that professional writing is expected on a site wr the use of swear words are flowing throughout the forms....doesn't make sense post in my thread if u didn't read it ....... nevertheless i was actually agreeing wit the fact that men shouldn't jump the gun when woman have guy friends, and to not just take advise on others that she should be nexted because of that.... clearly confidence is the opposite of jealousy but yet there requires a balance when a woman is clearly disrespecting you if for example she goes on dinner dates wit her guy friends etc.....not to mention the dopehead who doesn't mind sharing his gf to other guys....... above all I appreciate most of responses except the few that didn't make any sense............ just really hope that senior members start advising more practical responses to situations...cuz at times I need it and sure other young guys do too but with the saturation of negative, retarded, out right stupid responses i feel there isn't a point

[Mr. Me]

Here's the problem. That "door" is open as soon as she leaves the house.

There's a difference between, say, she goes to work in an office and she accepts lunch dates with another man. While an affair can happen either way, she's at the office to work, earn a paycheck, whereas a decision to have lunch with this other guy is... what? Certainly not about work, certainly an elective. It's all about being with this other guy.

This whole concept of your woman not being able to have male friends under any circumstances is ridiculous.

I guess it must be, because you seem to know what a ridiculous premise is.

I didn't say she *couldn't* have male friends. I said the right woman is going to turn down offers.

We all want to go out as a group? Me, her, Larry, her co-worker, Steve, her friend from college and his girlfriend? No problem. She wants to go out with Larry alone. Problem.

If you don't allow your woman to have male friends then

I believe I wrote that a guy should permit his woman to do whatever she wants. I don't tell a woman what she can and can't do. I tell her how I'll respond perhaps. But hopefully, I don't commit up with a woman before I know her character well enough, so this kind of stuff is hardly an issue.

I am Man enough not to be insecure about my woman, and I am smart enough to be able to spot disrespect. I don't need to start thumping my chest and draw lines in the sand to "keep my woman in line". She's gonna do what she's gonna do. The more you try to put her in a cage the more she's going to fight you.


You're inferring I'm insecure and stupid. Again, where did you read me saying tell a woman what to do? I'm saying let her play her hand. That's the only way you can see who she is, if she chooses not to play it right, you walk. You don't have to stick around for disloyalty. Give me the woman who's loyal to me and who will turn down the lunch offer. That's my gal.

You think having lunch with a guy she's known for years before you met her is any different than her working late hours on a project with a male co-worker?

This is exactly the kind of stuff women say to shame men in order to keep company with another man. That and calling them insecure.

But yes, if she has to work late on a project, if she really must, that's for work. Doesn't mean she's having a drink with him while he's macking her. If she agrees to a dinner date with the dude, that's... what? I see a huge difference.

And it doesn't matter HOW LONG she's known anyone. It's not about length of time. What matters is how she puts her relationship with her man as the priority.

And there's a big difference between "lunch dates" and catching up with an old friend

And the right woman will invite you along to meet the old friend at lunch.

It's "OK" if she's paid to hang out with a guy, huh? Not much logic there.

She's not getting paid to hang out with a guy. She gets paid to work with the guy. Maybe you misunderstood and maybe that's why it doesn't seem logical to you.

So, yes, it's okay to work with someone if that's what your job requires.

She can't say it's her job requiring her to have a drink with him after work in the cozy corner of a dark bar.

But if she does say that, then I'd suspect her integrity is low.

I suppose you could argue that the "work dynamic" might help keep things in check, but I think I heard somewhere that the majority of affairs women have are with coworkers, so that defense is pretty weak.

The affair doesn't really grow its legs in the office. But it sure can get cultivated by accepting invites for lunch or drinks after work.

What can I say? I am telling you, if you're with a woman who insists on seeing her old male friends and making new ones, and defending it with "I've known him longer then I know you!" and "He's just a friend!" and going off having her secret life, your relationship has a hole in it: You're with a low integrity or low interest woman.

[decades]

Secondly, a woman who is having lunches with a "male "friend" is hardly likely to tell you, at least initially, so how are you going to know what is going on in order to "SPOT the difference .." ??

actually some women, you know the type, will tell you. and those are the dangerous ones.

[horaholic]

My ex used to wait a couple months before telling me (half the story, anyway) about the shady shyt she was doing. By then, too much time had gone by to be mad about it. Yet another clever tool in her demonic arsenal.

[darkstarrr]

Amusing and entertaining how the topic can spin off the way it has.

I agree with the poster that this board has taught me some important things, about self confidence and living as well as I can. I strongly disagree with the general theme of the OP message which seemed to imply there was an overbearing amount of negativity or bitterness within the advice that people give each other which inevitably renders much of the advice useless. I see it from time to time from nimwits who haven't experienced HELL first hand, but overall its quite uncommon.

[jophil28]

What can I say? I am telling you, if you're with a woman who insists on seeing her old male friends and making new ones, and defending it with "I've known him longer then I know you!" and "He's just a friend!" and going off having her secret life, your relationship has a hole in it: You're with a low integrity or low interest woman.

If she is pulling this shyte behind your back (especially with NEW guys that she met AFTER you) then you do not have a "relationship" which is worth saving. She is indeed a low quality woman.

You are simply in an 'arrangement of convenience' - mainly her convenience.
And she will continue to cheat with her male "friends" until she finds a BBD to swing across to.

[Bronxtal112]

You're with a low integrity or low interest woman.

So besides those two factors. May I ask WHY a woman must seen attention/ validation from another man while in a relationship with me or you?

What good does it do her?

[guru1000]

It is pretty evident that any man who exercises his exclusivity with such a woman does not select quality and/or high IL as a priority.

The real motivator behind this decision is one's lack of options. A scarce mind frame will justify his own decisions in picking the bottom of the barrel due to his perceived inadequacies. After all if one has the pick of the litter, why would he not acquire woman who hold themselves to higher ideals and respect for their partner.

I am not singling anyone out but I am not fooled by those who pretend a 'Popular' woman is acceptable. Their red lights certainly go off but they refuse to acknowledge it as a defense mechanism to their scarcity.

I have always explained the significance of establishing boundaries at the point of exclusivity. In this case, a woman of this type of thinking is not LTR material and thus disqualifies herself immediately from an LTR. That being said, a woman of this thinking will not have the privilege of being locked in a cage as she does not merit my attention.

Part of having a successful LTR is to property qualify your potential partner. Despite one's scarcity, any man who chooses such a woman will continue having the same undesirable results.

If one ACCEPTS only respectful compatible behavior as a prerequisite to exclusivity, then he will find himself surrounded by qualified candidates who are worthy of his boundary implementation.

[darkstarrr]

It is pretty evident that any man who exercises his exclusivity with such a woman does not select quality and/or high IL as a priority.

The real motivator behind this decision is one's lack of options. A scarce mind frame will justify his own decisions in picking the bottom of the barrel due to his perceived inadequacies. After all if one has the pick of the litter, why would he not acquire woman who hold themselves to higher ideals and respect for their partner.

This just about sums it up but the reality of it is that a lot of guys don't have the "pick of the litter". I'm a busy guy, I work full time as an engineer and I live by myself. Most of my friends are into their own things, many of them tied down in their own relationships and families. I'm considering getting a part time job at Whole Foods at this point to meet new people.

My point is that a lot of times people, expecially in phases of their lives, do not have a lot of options. It what it is.

And so you meet a girl and you hang out on a somewhat regular basis. She demonstrates high IL and it feels great, she seems normal. My point here is that often times, especially for the noobies and unsuspecting men out there is can be too late because by the time they realize something isn't quite right, they are already hooked emotionally or otherwise and they begin to feel panicked inside because they know if things "end", this prson they are with might be the type to "sleep around" to "feel better" about herself.

Then you start to develop a complex subconciously, sort of like an unhealthy protective measure that induces you to prevent things from ending because you are so afraid subconsciously of being hurt.

So the lesson learned once again is you have to be very careful with who you welcome into your lives and balance "that" with putting in a lot of effort to have "options".

[samspade]

It is pretty evident that any man who exercises his exclusivity with such a woman does not select quality and/or high IL as a priority.

I can't disagree with this phrase.

Obviously, the point of debate is the definition of "such a woman" - which is pretty vague. And I'm not buying the all-or-nothing theory that she's either a noble angel or a philandering *****. This is the false dichotomy being suggested here.

If one ACCEPTS only respectful compatible behavior as a prerequisite to exclusivity, then he will find himself surrounded by qualified candidates who are worthy of his boundary implementation.

I won't dispute this either, but it's clear that "respectful compatible behavior" is in the eye of the beholder and varies from person to person. If you find it disrespectful for your woman to interact with another male, that is your prerogative. Of course, you may find a "quality" woman who adheres to your idea of respectful behavior, or at least you will be mentally satisfied when she tells you she is following your rules. Whether she actually follows them or not, you may never know.

[Luthor Rex]

What can I say? I am telling you, if you're with a woman who insists on seeing her old male friends and making new ones, and defending it with "I've known him longer then I know you!" and "He's just a friend!" and going off having her secret life, your relationship has a hole in it: You're with a low integrity or low interest woman.

I think that our lives have all taught us that in general we can't trust women. Well, the fact is you can't trust most people out there when it comes to sex and who's going to stab you in the back.

I think that men on here who don't like their girlfriends going out solo with other men have seen just how easily some people are turned and carry suspicion with them into their relationships. This is actually probably the more realistic way to be, truth be told. Or maybe I just grew up around too much poor white trash.

So what these men want, and I agree with them, is for their woman to be "above suspicion". If the situation were reversed I would not go out with a an ex-gf alone or even just a female friend alone if I were dating someone else. I don't talk about the Hollywood actresses I have crushes on in front of anyone I'm dating. Heck, I don't even look at porn while dating someone because I think it's disrespectful. I do this and other little things because I see the world and the people in it as inherently not worthy of trust, and I want to give off as many signs that I can be trusted as I can. Which is why I behave in a manner that doesn't even put me into a situation that appears that I could be compromised.

If the woman I am dating is not willing to act in a similar manner, then I have less trust for her. Of course this system for weeding bad people out of my life isn't fool proof, but then nothing is.

[slaog]

So what these men want, and I agree with them, is for their woman to be "above suspicion". If the situation were reversed I would not go out with a an ex-gf alone or even just a female friend alone if I were dating someone else. I don't talk about the Hollywood actresses I have crushes on in front of anyone I'm dating. Heck, I don't even look at porn while dating someone because I think it's disrespectful. I do this and other little things because I see the world and the people in it as inherently not worthy of trust, and I want to give off as many signs that I can be trusted as I can. Which is why I behave in a manner that doesn't even put me into a situation that appears that I could be compromised.




Exactly! If you want your woman to have those high standards you need to have high standards too.


Lead by example. They'll respect you more and be more likely to follow your lead.

[STR8UP]

Two problem with all your "shoulds" here...

Firstly women have no clear " lines" as we men know them . They create what is OK, or not OK " on the run " according to how they "feel" and how immediately gratifying the situation is TO THEM.

Kinda shoots a few holes in the idea that "quality" women exist, eh?

Of course I subscribe to the idea that most women are the same at their core, but that doesn't mean that they are all utterly incapable of good behavior.

Secondly, a woman who is having lunches with a "male "friend" is hardly likely to tell you, at least initially, so how are you going to know what is going on in order to "SPOT the difference .." ??

It's called a "gut feeling". If she is truly doing something WRONG (which lunch with another man could go either way) you will eventually know about it and you should know how to deal with it accordingly.

Interesting.......everything you just said pretty much backs up the idea that women are basically the same. No such thing as "quality" that you can put a label on. more a matter of setting the frame and maintaining it. I thought you were one of the "yes they do exist" guys....

You're inferring I'm insecure and stupid. Again, where did you read me saying tell a woman what to do? I'm saying let her play her hand. That's the only way you can see who she is, if she chooses not to play it right, you walk. You don't have to stick around for disloyalty. Give me the woman who's loyal to me and who will turn down the lunch offer. That's my gal.

I'm not insinuating that at all.

I throw out the work example because I firmly believe that this is the root of most infidelity. Yes, when a woman is working with another man it is different than her accepting an invitation to see him on a personal level. You are talking about a woman essentially accepting a "date" with a guy. I'm talking more about a woman who doesn't necessarily shun her friends (male or female) when she gets into a relationship. There's a difference.

What I am trying to say is that it may or may not be ok for her to have male friends or to be in the company of other men. But for those who say hands down that "A woman in a relationship should not have male friends" sounds insecure to me. It's a situational thing.

There's black, white, and a whole lot of grey. A guy who thinks that the women he dates will never be walking the grey area is delusional. Maybe she never will....but chances are pretty good.

My contention is that it's going to happen anyway, so there is no point in trying to stifle it. Makes you look weak and insecure, and it pushes women away. Most women are going to do sh!t behind your back. Most of the time it will be "fairly" innocent. You can draw all of the boundaries you want but if she is attractive she will have other men pursuing her. It is up to HER to set boundaries. If she doesn't set proper boundaries, you will eventually find out and you get rid of her.

Out of curiosity.....what would you think if lets say you went out of town on business, and your g/f or wife happens to have a single friend in town visiting, and this single friend happened to know a lot of people in the area and invited a bunch of guys and girls to go out for the night? Would it be disrespectful of your girl to go out with a mixed group if you aren't able to attend? See where things can get blurry?

I am not singling anyone out but I am not fooled by those who pretend a 'Popular' woman is acceptable. Their red lights certainly go off but they refuse to acknowledge it as a defense mechanism to their scarcity.

You shouldn't be dating an AW in the first place.

There's a difference between a woman seeking attention outside of her relationship and a woman who is simply being social. Like I said before....if I start dating a woman exclusively and she tries to tell me that I can no longer have any form of contact with the women I know, she won't be getting the honor. I learned long ago that the absolute worst thing you can do when you get involved with someone is to put the rest of your life on hold. Do I change my behavior when I am with someone? Sure I do. But I'll be damned if a chick starts dictating who i can and cannot talk to, so I'm not going to be dictating that kind of stuff to her either.

As Mr. Me pointed out, your woman should put you first. If she doesn't then there's a problem. Everything else is details.

I can't disagree with this phrase.

Obviously, the point of debate is the definition of "such a woman" - which is pretty vague. And I'm not buying the all-or-nothing theory that she's either a noble angel or a philandering *****. This is the false dichotomy being suggested here.

And that is truly the reason why some guys will never make it out of the matrix. The idea of high quality vs. low quality is a form of self-delusion that is the next layer under the Soulmate Myth. Most guys make it past the first layer, but they dare not even challenge the second one.

Of course, you may find a "quality" woman who adheres to your idea of respectful behavior, or at least you will be mentally satisfied when she tells you she is following your rules. Whether she actually follows them or not, you may never know.

The same folks who have a problem getting past the Myth of the Quality Woman are the ones who are "mentally satisfied" with being deceived. I've been around enough women in my life to know how it really works.

Oh yea, and Unprez....I didn't bother reading past the first sentence of your reply. A little capitalization and punctuation makes a post easier to read. Don't be lazy.

[jophil28]

Interesting.......everything you just said pretty much backs up the idea that women are basically the same. No such thing as "quality" that you can put a label on. more a matter of setting the frame and maintaining it. I thought you were one of the "yes they do exist" guys....



UNfortunately you bought into that facile belief that men who refer to women as "low quality" are merely buffering themselves against rejection or protecting their egos against recent past rejection by her or other women.
Now you are protecting you own investment in this theory by continuing to promote the "Myth of the Quality Woman."

IT is no MYTH, IN the 80's I was married to a Quality Woman who demonstrated her "quality" and integrity in myriad ways, and many of those were on occasions which had little to do with me. I saw her act on her beliefs inspite of her fear of disapproval, she always kept her word, she never cheated or flirted, and she was fearlessly honest and forthright with OTHER people.
SHe was an humanities academic who was not willing to be hijacked by faddish theories and post modernist gibberish. SHe was highly intelligent, demanding in her own way of herself and others, and very clear about her moral code and her ethical standards.

The "Myth of the Quality" is its own foolish myth.

[Unprez]

The "Myth of the Quality" is its own foolish myth.

Agreed..and trying to go back to the core point of this thread is that because of this you cannot provide generalized advise on woman!....a stripper is liekly to want thugged out guys who treat her like **** ...while an educated intellectual woman would not! ...... point being is that quality exists wit woman as it does wit men...being a uni grad i would be very disgusted if a woman would generalize me to some gangster bum who sells drugs at the corner...and yet thats wht woman do cuz there are illogical and complain...men being rational we should note the difference and take that into serious consideration otherise u get retards who posts threads in the mature column about how some stripper broke their heart....

[guru1000]

UNfortunately you bought into that facile belief that men who refer to women as "low quality" are merely buffering themselves against rejection or protecting their egos against recent past rejection by her or other women.


Problem here Jophil is a prostitute will hold on to the belief EVERYONE is a prostitute. No sacrifices were ever made to note the difference of quality in themselves. As such, the quality myth is used as a buffer to protect their standards or shall we say lack of. Yet when I drive around in my 550 benz, I can't help but realize not every car was made the same.

[jophil28]

Yet when I drive around in my 550 benz, I can't help but realize not every car was made same.


Point made.

[skEwb]

I think that our lives have all taught us that in general we can't trust women. Well, the fact is you can't trust most people out there when it comes to sex and who's going to stab you in the back.

I think that men on here who don't like their girlfriends going out solo with other men have seen just how easily some people are turned and carry suspicion with them into their relationships. This is actually probably the more realistic way to be, truth be told. Or maybe I just grew up around too much poor white trash.

So what these men want, and I agree with them, is for their woman to be "above suspicion". If the situation were reversed I would not go out with a an ex-gf alone or even just a female friend alone if I were dating someone else. I don't talk about the Hollywood actresses I have crushes on in front of anyone I'm dating. Heck, I don't even look at porn while dating someone because I think it's disrespectful. I do this and other little things because I see the world and the people in it as inherently not worthy of trust, and I want to give off as many signs that I can be trusted as I can. Which is why I behave in a manner that doesn't even put me into a situation that appears that I could be compromised.

If the woman I am dating is not willing to act in a similar manner, then I have less trust for her. Of course this system for weeding bad people out of my life isn't fool proof, but then nothing is.

I used to have this issue. I got rid of it by simply not caring anymore. I'm not saying everyone has to do it this way, but if you care you're the one that gets hurt. If she cheats, that's on her and vice versa.

When you become a detective about a woman and start looking into her, it's pretty much a good time to either end it or prove your doubts are correct.

We live in a random world filled with many different kinds of unique people. They will all do as they please, you're not here to change them, you're just here to mingle with them.

One can only change if one is open to the idea, not if you try to force them into it.

The reason I'm saying this is that I suffered more than the person doing the wrongdoing, because I cared more. A relationship typically is never 50/50 someone ends up caring more and pushing the percentage which further drives the other person to have more of a reason to do something you don't want them to.

I think the key is to keep the care level even, if possible, if not.. try to swing the care level more your way and suffer less :)

[Luthor Rex]

I used to have this issue. I got rid of it by simply not caring anymore. I'm not saying everyone has to do it this way, but if you care you're the one that gets hurt. If she cheats, that's on her and vice versa.

The reason I'm saying this is that I suffered more than the person doing the wrongdoing, because I cared more. A relationship typically is never 50/50 someone ends up caring more and pushing the percentage which further drives the other person to have more of a reason to do something you don't want them to.

I think the key is to keep the care level even, if possible, if not.. try to swing the care level more your way and suffer less :)

"Whomever cares the least, wins."

I understand what you are saying and I see this kind of thing in action around me all the time. While I can't disagree with your method, because it does work, I still don't like it really. My problem is, if I turn my feeling off (or even way down), I don't find the relationship fulfilling. No matter what I'm getting out of it, it'll feel like a waste of time.

What I've come to realize is that I've grown up sheltered. But not sheltered in a way that most people think about. I live south of Baltimore and north of Washington D.C.. I live in an area surrounded predominantly by two kinds of people: government employees and white trash. Lots and lots of white trash.

I never realized just how bad it was until I started to travel. I never realized that cities could actually be clean! I could eat out of Las Vegas' gutters compared to this place. I never realized just how (generally) dirty, ugly, and rude the people who live in this area are until I started seeing other parts of America. (I imagine my perspective will change again if I ever start traveling internationally.) I always knew things were different in other places, but I never realized how different.

That included the women. The women around here (again, generally) are stupid, selfish, cousin-lovin' white trash. If you're a guy on here who thinks all women are lying selfish-wh0res, you've got one of two problems: either you're messed up in the head, or you live a bad area. I first started seeing the difference when working with guys who are poor and straight out of Baltimore city.

These guys live in the parts of the city where you have to sneak your new TV into your house and make sure no one sees you if you don't want to get it stolen. I got to meet their women, and yes the quality did drop. It becomes more obvious the bigger the gap that exists. Now, these guys didn't know any better because literally these were the only kinds of women they have ever known.

Since I've gotten to travel around, I got to see other families that you would think just stepped right out of Leave it to B3aver. Yes, they were for real I investigated them thoroughly. lol

Quality people are real, but you won't believe they are if you've never met them or spent time with them. I'm guessing a lot of the people who complain about women on this board may very well live in a bad area and just don't realize that they do because they have never seen anything else.

If you do look around yourself and find a human waste dump, start planing your escape.

Fight for your future.