I wish it wasn't an AFC report but I'm feelin' it, especially tonight.

I'll try to be economical and positive, because ultimately I'd like to think that I'm shedding my AFC skin. Perhaps not the last one but at least we're shedding.

This revolves around two plates, but mainly one, Plate A. I did fall for A, I did see plenty of red flags, including my own oneitis developing, and I did position myself to eject or change course but ultimately let myself be sucked back in by emotional nectar.

The most seductive thing was that when it was good it was really good: I felt incredibly connected to A and it was reinforced by her apparent willingness and eagerness to spend time, lots of quality time together.

The problem was and is that ultimately she has very serious issues about intimacy and being intimate, being generous, being patient, having a temper, etc. Naturally (he says) this made the AFC want her even more.

I got to the point where I had an intense physical and emotional craving for this woman that was making me crazy. Pulling away from her "worked" to the extent that she reeled me back in and another cycle of frustration ensued.

I spun and attempted to spin other plates but mostly half heartedly, because she was my heroin.

Last night was the showdown, on the surface between her and me to the extent that she was clear about not wanting to be as emotionally available as I want. I admit it: It's crazy and AFC for me to make my emotional well being dependent on a woman who is not available and will not be for the foreseeable future. It's embarrassing for me to admit it but I'm admitting it.

But even though I'm heartbroken at the moment (I should be celebrating right?) I know that the showdown was really with me:

-I'm ready to be available and find available women who respect me

-I'm ready to not be distracted by disrespectful women who seduce me with puzzy, charm, a nice azz, whatever.

-I'm ready to eject much much sooner at the sign of disrespect and marginal IL

-I'm ready for a woman who appreciates me and will go out of her way to let me know it

-I'm ready to not make my emotional well-being hinge on any woman

PLATE B flaked on me a couple of nights ago and it sucked but the timing is probably perfect: I can look at these two women and think, what am I thinking, neither of them is right for me, I deserve much better

So yeah, I feel like crap, feel beaten up, but take solace in that I engineered this showdown, actually with both A and B, because I stopped taking B's calls and she's been chasing me down. And I engineered this wringer because I feel that it's time to step up.

I'm older than most of you and I'm coming out of an LTR that left me in shock but in many ways I feel like a baby learning his first steps.

Juando said:

PLATE B flaked on me a couple of nights ago and it sucked but the timing is probably perfect: I can look at these two women and think, what am I thinking, neither of them is right for me, I deserve much better

So yeah, I feel like crap, feel beaten up, but take solace in that I engineered this showdown, actually with both A and B, because I stopped taking B's calls and she's been chasing me down. And I engineered this wringer because I feel that it's time to step up.

I'm older than most of you and I'm coming out of an LTR that left me in shock but in many ways I feel like a baby learning his first steps.

Click to expand...

Juando, the fact that you are out there spinning plates means you have it in you to step up and face challenges head on.

When life knocks you down, you stand up, shake it off, and spring back into action.

Props for that...and remember, life and women is really one big learning lesson for all of us. We've all gone through what you are going through now at one point. Keep your chin up and keep spinning those plates!

Mr.Positive said:

Juando, the fact that you are out there spinning plates means you have it in you to step up and face challenges head on.

When life knocks you down, you stand up, shake it off, and spring back into action.

Props for that...and remember, life and women is really one big learning lesson for all of us. We've all gone through what you are going through now at one point. Keep your chin up and keep spinning those plates!

Click to expand...

Thanks for the support, Mr. P- it's appreciated!

It's a weird thing in human wiring, my mind and body are pulling in different directions; my mind can easily list plenty of reasons why these women have been deficient and don't meet my needs, and yet my body and emotions feel like something's wrong, something's missing, and it would all be fine if the chicks brought me some of their sugar.

That cognitive dissonance has been expressed by many in catchy phrases but it's strange to go through it, definitely an addiction when looked at this way. Puzzy is a great thing but it becomes heroin when one feels like it's vital to well-being and peace of mind.

What do you guys do if and when "withdrawing"- spin more plates, sports, hang with bros, cold showers?

Your Mission in Life, your Ultimate Purpose in Life is your Anchor.

If you dont have that..that Direction...you are out there lost at sea...


The problems come when a guy sees his Wants and NEEDS, as BOTH His NEEDS.

When its no longer "I want that cool car, or that cool chick.."

BUT "I NEED that cool car... I NEED that cool chick."

You should have your Mission to give you inspiration and comfort, and let it act as your Anchor in life. To always be there, and THAT is what takes up the majority of your time.


You may also be neglecting a spiritual side as well.

And through all this tumultous emotional and life circumstance events...your Pursuit of High Character keeps you making decisions with your HIGHER SELF


have you read this?:
http://www.sosuave.net/forum/showthread.php?t=141177



Dude, when youre at the stage where you think a 'cold shower' will somehow magically Center you, and repair and realign your Emotional Resources, you do really need help...

I do like to finish off with a cold shower but it was semi-tongue-in-cheek here, Interceptor.

I went for an acupuncture treatment yesterday and I found out that the points for heartbreak (yes, they're there) and sleep disorder are identical.

I crashed after the treatment, I'm in the middle of it now but it feels like my soul and body are recalibrating.

I'm lucky in that besides MM I have a good friend who really gets this stuff and he is coaching me big time to stay connected to myself and my truth.

Interceptor, your support and wisdom feels spot on- just what I need to hear and refocus on, and I'm pushing on into what for me is relatively uncharted territory:

the Land of Man.

The prospect and opportunity to become an integrated, complete Man is exciting, to put it mildly and it's great to have many brothers on the path.

If the discomfort I'm experiencing is part of the price for transformation, it's worth it.

Did some of you guys have it easy or is my experience of struggling typical, as Mr. Positive says?

The reason you get one-itis for girls like that is because, when we're in an AFC mindset, we tend to blame OURSELVES for both our own problems AND the girls's.

You find yourself thinking, "It was so much FUN last time we were together. What am *I* doing wrong this time to screw it up?", completely discounting the possibility that SHE has HER problems as well.

If you can't take the "bad times" for what they are, then you'll never be able to stay with someone long-term.

Juando

Your struggling is probally typical. Its tuff, after having a way of life that you enjoyed change.

It sounds like your still having issues with your initial LTR. It takes time!!

I was happily married most of my adult life. I found myself in the singles world in my early 40's by a choice neither of us wanted. I found that having other passions, goals, business ( I was lucky to have these ) in my life was what saved me. I was always building a life around my marriage with other things. My LTR just enhanced my life and made it even better. These other aspects of my life help tremendously, especially when you come to that barricade in the road.

You want to find other things to occupy your mind. Anything besides women.

What your going thru with being single at your age is typical. When I decided to get out in the world and look for some women. What an eye opener!! At our age it is difficult.

More so than the younger men. I have run into more loons than I want to admit. Our pool is smaller. I have learned to be patient and careful.

It took a few set backs and this place to learn what it was all about. Dont give up. Your life will take a change for the better when you least expect it but you have to keep picking yourself up!!

Keep your chin up!!

One thing that is not stressed enough: this is a journey. Odds are you will not find someone worth being in a LTR quickly. There is no rush, just keep moving forward one step at a time, one woman at a time, one date at a time, and have fun.

logic1 said:

It sounds like your still having issues with your initial LTR. It takes time!!

Click to expand...

At first I was a bit puzzled by your comment, but actually... on reflection, you're so right.

And here's one specific example: Even though I tried to treat this current plate like the individual she is, I noticed that I was reflexively responding, relating and nudging her in a direction that was part of my "imprint" with my LTR;
like the way I used to touch her, snuggle, a lot of non-verbal behavior; and also just a variety of things, like I enjoyed walking and talking with the LTR, etc.

Lucky for me, the new plate liked some of this stuff, but not all of it.

I know that some of these things stem from my personality and personal preferences but it's scary that some things I definitely did overlay from one relationship to the next, nevermind the completely differing women and individual circumstances.

Good catch, logic.

BTW, today was decent. I worked on a creative project, which felt really good and definitely took my mind off problematic puzzy.

Started to feel weird and get blue when i got home but a brisk walk brought me back.

Plate B called and wants to see me (she brought it up, I wasn't going to) Friday. I said yes- I'm thinking since she's been sending me a lot of affectionate and warm energy lately- i could practice being "cool" and see what happens, as a variation on the usual, practicing being the aggressor.

I'm nervous about Plate A calling since I've been so wrapped around her.
I'm thinking to not take her calls right away if she calls and somehow make it clear that if we get together it's a new game.

Quick report, don't have much time, but wanted to let you guys know
that it's been an emotional rollercoaster ride, up and down.

But the great news, even though I've been tempted to call the Object of
My Affection, for relief, is that I am clearer than ever that this is not about HER.

It's about ME. It's about me once and for all getting my $h*t together and knowing that what I need is inside me, not in HER hands, not between her legs,
that whatever is going on with her has NOTHING to do with my well-being.

Obvious stuff to many of you here but clarifying for the first time in my life for me and this is my opportunity to surf this one in.

Won't be calling HER unless I'm in a place where I can take her or leave her and her mood is her mood.

Will report again....

Good attitude

You will find when you are at the place where you feel it would be alright to contact her, you will ask yourself why and wont do it.

Reading your posts I would suggest to stay away from dating until everything is crystal clear in your head and you understand your past mistakes. If you dont you will attract the same type of women.

logic1 said:

Good attitude

You will find when you are at the place where you feel it would be alright to contact her, you will ask yourself why and wont do it.

Click to expand...

I woke up angry today. I had the whole laundry list of disappointments, insults, slights, and disrespect scrolling in front of me like the credits at the end of a movie. I wanted to write them down and send them to her in a "greeting" card; of course I won't, it would just give her more self-importance and attention, which she thrives on.

Then I got angry at myself for being such a sucker and AFC. But I can let go of that and know that this is about moving on, learning from and not repeating the past.

It's getting easier for me to not take impulses to call her seriously.
The area where I have not been tested here is, what if she calls me? What do I do? Ignore her call? Take my time responding? See her and show her it's not business as usual? Not sure....

Reading your posts I would suggest to stay away from dating until everything is crystal clear in your head and you understand your past mistakes. If you dont you will attract the same type of women.

Click to expand...

Went out for sushi last night with a friend. Very cute waitress.
When the bill came I told her I'd like to meet up, she jumped on it, gave me her number and we have a date.

Can't I just learn while on the job?

Wrote this imaginary letter to her; my buddy role-played her response:

> Hi __,
>
> I woke up angry at you.

Finally - I got through to you. I’ve been wanting to anger you since I became irresistibly attracted to you.

> You have 11 days off- and you can't find five minutes to
> call?

I am processing what you want. How dare you have your wants, Your suppose to only be there for my wants.

> And that's AFTER I invited you to go on a trip with me, and I
> suggested different
> places and options. I also invited you to___, weeks ago.

>Why
> do I waste my
> time on someone who does not appreciate or value me?

You’re not suppose to ask this question, If you answer it, my illusion of power of you will disappear.
I am threatened by a man who I can’t control, who has his own identity. I don’t have the ability or interest to get behind your power so stay powerless so I can stay in charge.

> You are a NO machine: I invited you dancing and you said, no not
> with me.
> I invited you to the____and you said no, without even
> asking me what it
> was. I invited you to a play and you said no without even asking what
> or when.

No I am not a no machine, how dare you say I am a no machine. No I am not a machine.
No I am not a machine. No I am not a machine. No I am not a machine. No I am not a machine. No I am not a machine. No I am not a machine. No I am not a machine. No I am not a machine. No I am not a machine. No I am not a machine. No I am not a machine. No I am not a machine. No I am not a machine. No I am not a machine. No I am not a machine. No I am not a machine. No I am not a machine. No I am not a machine. No I am not a machine. No I am not a machine. No I am not a machine.

Did I make my program, I mean did I make MY point clear enough? How dare you point the finger?
You were a yes machine, so didn’t it make a good fit?

> I told you I enjoy spending time with you and when you were getting
> ready to move
> I came over after work, helped you pack, brought food so you would
> not get weak.
> I sat with you when you were crying about finding a place. I went
> with you to look at
> places and had to endure your grumpiness. Then, after you moved,
> you told me that
> it was stressful but you invited your neighbors for dinner because
> they had helped you
> in the moving process. What about me? I was not invited then or after.

You are my servant and you are out of line. Servants aren’t allowed to socialize with company. You know that, don’t you?

> I feel used by you. You came and stayed at my place, I had you over
> lots of times for
> meals, I supported you, listened to you when you were down,
> massaged you when
> you were sore. I was patient and understanding when you were
> emotional and angry.
> Now that you are settled in your place, you are distant both
> emotionally and physically.

I don’t need you right now but wait until I do and we can get back to you serving me.

> I drove you around, drove you to your old building manager,
> drove you home.
> You *****ed at me about everything- the air settings in my car,
> eating too slowly in
> the restaurant. When I asked you to back off you said let's not be
> friends anymore.
> You've said let's not be friends any more three times, at the drop
> of a hat when things
> were not going exactly to your liking.

It’s a woman’s right, you know the eternal pms thing.
Men – they just don’t understand.

> I told you that I want to be respected and when you show up late
> that's disrespectful.
> After that I had you over for lunch. You arrived over two hours
> late, did not call, did not
> apologize, made excuses. Then I took you out for sushi and you
> showed up almost an
> hour late, did not apologize, gave me a hard time about the
> situation being awkward.

It’s a woman’s right, you know the eternal pms thing.
Men – they just don’t understand.

> Coming home from sushi I asked you to get your things in case you
> stayed over, which
> I wanted you to, and you got angry at me asking you to stay over.

You can’t want – I won’t let you. That’s my job and you are my servant.
It’s a woman’s right, you know the eternal pms thing.
Men – they just don’t understand.

> I tried to be the facilitator in making a deal for speakers from
>____. She was very nice
> and gave you lots of time to evaluate them. At the end you got angry
> both with me and
> her as if we were doing you a disservice, and you had a fit and said
> NO.

I never said I was nice. I only want your help the way I want your help and at the time I need your help. If it is inconvenient, then I have the right to be pissed off at your helping me in ways that aren’t my idea of helping me.

> You've received all my affection but have refused to return any of it.

I took what was given, receiving is a talent us women are good at.
Don’t you have anything else you can give me? Have I used you up?
Can’t I get you to keep me as your priority so I can still get all the goodies?

> My mother is very ill and you know it but you've barely made an
> effort to ask how she is,
> how I am.

I never said I was nice.

>You seem to have very little regard for any of my needs or
> thoughts or difficulties.

Pay no attention to the woman behind the makeup

> You treated me like a girlfriend when you started to tell me about a
> guy you were interested in.

You ARE my girlfriend.

> You've always hesitated to kiss me. You've many times pushed me away
> when I tried to touch
> you in an affectionate way.

You ARE my girlfriend.
Don’t you want to keep trying to spread my legs?
We could have gone on forever like this but you now seem to have YOUR IDEAS and NEEDS.

> When I told you I wanted to have a real relationship with you, you
> disappeared.

I am still me. I am still focused on me. what disappeared is your not being my servant on my terms.

> What is it with you?

I, me, mine.
I, me, mine.
I, me, mine.

>Juando

Me

You still have some scarcity issues. You become accustomed to internalizing and justifying her problems and her guilt.

Life is about taking responsiblity. For your actions and, more importantly, allowing those we hold closest to accept responsiblity for themselves.

This you have to do. Above everything. Let her fend off the dragon of despair. It's her dragon. She created it, she raised it, she must defeat it.

Otherwise she'll keep breeding dragons.

You have to know, without a fraction of a second that it's you who have to answer for the things you say, the things you do.

Realize Juando, that we teach others how they're to treat us. If you allow her to step on your sac and grind her heal in it, then that's exactly what she'll do because you have given her that permission.

If you want people to treat you better you need to start by treating yourself better.

You may want to click on my sig and read The Karmic Laws which I've leaked from my book. They're just what men like you and I need.

KarmaSutra said:

You still have some scarcity issues. You become accustomed to internalizing and justifying her problems and her guilt.

Life is about taking responsiblity. For your actions and, more importantly, allowing those we hold closest to accept responsiblity for themselves.

This you have to do. Above everything. Let her fend off the dragon of despair. It's her dragon. She created it, she raised it, she must defeat it.

Otherwise she'll keep breeding dragons.

You have to know, without a fraction of a second that it's you who have to answer for the things you say, the things you do.

Realize Juando, that we teach others how they're to treat us. If you allow her to step on your sac and grind her heal in it, then that's exactly what she'll do because you have given her that permission.

If you want people to treat you better you need to start by treating yourself better.

You may want to click on my sig and read The Karmic Laws which I've leaked from my book. They're just what men like you and I need.

Click to expand...

I think I get what you're saying, Karma, except maybe for the despair thing.

I wrote this letter yesterday because yesterday morning I woke up ANGRY, which was great, because before then I was stuck on the sad, heartbroken, depressed level.

Last night I came home feeling the sad feelings and I read the letter again and it got me pi$$ed which raised my emotions above the sad victim stage.

I have not had contact with her since last weekend. I don't plan to call her anytime soon.

I will not say any of what's in the letter to her. If she contacts me I will be very neutral with her. If she brings up relationship stuff I am not sure what I will say but my position will be that the only kind of relationship I'm interested in is a healthy one, period. I'm done with drama, done with taking care of her, done with finding ways to deal with her anger, impatience, selfishness- which probably means I'm done with her, unless she's up for major changes.

When I talk about "her" I realize that much of the issue here is "me" and my residual, unconscious AFC. This has much more to do with me getting comfortable with myself, my needs, my wants. I'm a good guy- any decent woman is lucky to get my attention. My ego is still flailing, has not yet settled down to the point where I don't suddenly get gripped by "withdrawal" symptoms.

I'm seeing another woman later today, a much healthier woman, and looking forward to it. Not sure if she can be moved to stable Plate status, but I'm on it.

Working on myself is the main priority.
And women for now i see as a sweet distraction, an opportunity to find out what it's like to have them relate to me much much more on MY terms, which for me is a new ballgame.

Juando said:

Working on myself is the main priority.
And women for now i see as a sweet distraction, an opportunity to find out what it's like to have them relate to me much much more on MY terms, which for me is a new ballgame.

Click to expand...

Good job and go by your words.

And dont............. allow yourself to....................... Read below.

In your frame of mind at the present. Be careful and dont go off the deep end when you get that first taste of a new women.

Good luck

Juando said:

I'm seeing another woman later today, a much healthier woman, and looking forward to it. Not sure if she can be moved to stable Plate status, but I'm on it.

Click to expand...

No one busted me on this;

"looking forward to it" ? WTF??

Why should I look forward to IT? She's getting the privilege of hanging with ME!
Let's see what she has for ME. I know what I've got for her and it's all good.

Snap out of it, guys....

logic1 said:

Good job and go by your words.

And dont............. allow yourself to....................... Read below.

In your frame of mind at the present. Be careful and dont go off the deep end when you get that first taste of a new women.

Good luck

Click to expand...

Advise please, logic/ anyone:

So at the sushi place the other night, our waitress was a real cutie.

At the end of the night I told her I wanted to see her, we made a coffee date for Monday, and she's already texted me to confirm, which was not necessary but fine.

So the dating 101 question- this is obviously our first date and it's about establishing rapport, etc. I already know i'm attracted, she's friendly and IL seems good at this point; knowing me, I want to "do" more than coffee.
Fine meeting her at a coffee joint to reconnect but if it goes as anticipated I will want to take her somewhere else.

My dj studies have taught that the coffee date should be short and to the point, ideally cut short by the man to establish a basic foundation of connection, rapport, and then separation/ limited availability to keep the IL up.

So this question is connected to the OP and above quoted warning; should I override my desire to expand our first date beyond simple coffee? Even if she's fun and receptive? What is your experience?

Thinking about it I've had epic first dates that led to LTR or other expansions.
I've also had it the other way, where first date went great but that was it, nada nothing more after that...

From this thread you know I'm feeling rocky, so here I am expressing doubts about my judgment.

I have no attachment to this girl but could use some feedback....

Juando said:

Advise please, logic/ anyone:

So at the sushi place the other night, our waitress was a real cutie.

At the end of the night I told her I wanted to see her, we made a coffee date for Monday, and she's already texted me to confirm, which was not necessary but fine.

So the dating 101 question- this is obviously our first date and it's about establishing rapport, etc. I already know i'm attracted, she's friendly and IL seems good at this point; knowing me, I want to "do" more than coffee.
Fine meeting her at a coffee joint to reconnect but if it goes as anticipated I will want to take her somewhere else.

My dj studies have taught that the coffee date should be short and to the point, ideally cut short by the man to establish a basic foundation of connection, rapport, and then separation/ limited availability to keep the IL up.

So this question is connected to the OP and above quoted warning; should I override my desire to expand our first date beyond simple coffee? Even if she's fun and receptive? What is your experience?

Thinking about it I've had epic first dates that led to LTR or other expansions.
I've also had it the other way, where first date went great but that was it, nada nothing more after that...

From this thread you know I'm feeling rocky, so here I am expressing doubts about my judgment.

I have no attachment to this girl but could use some feedback....

Click to expand...

JUANDO, I have to tell you. You are one of my favorite posters.

I am sorry to say this. The likelihood of this date working out GREAT is slim in your present STATE. There is too much thought, preparation and ANXIETY invested into these women lately.

JUANDO, YOU JUST MET THE GIRL!

Your DESIRE is too strong. Desire of this magnitude on a first date will MANIFEST into DESPERATION.

You can find the end in the beginning if you look for it. Read this entire thread again and picture your first date.

Eliminate your desperation. Desire is GREAT if it stems from WANTING, not NEEDING.

You do not NEED a plate. The outcome of this date does not matter.

If you can believe that, you will succeed.

Now to answer your question on what to do after the coffee date.

Whatever you want. It is not what you do that is important. It is your FRAME of mind that will open or close this woman. This FRAME cannot be PAINTED, it must be REAL.

I have ended first dates within a half hour. I as well have had a first date last for a consecutive week straight. Both extremes and everything in the middle were successful for me. The common denominator was ME, not strategy.

1) Eliminate DESPERATION and NECESSITY.

2) Eliminate STRATEGY

3) Be YOU!

Remember PUA and INJECTING INTEREST in only a short term FILLER. The key is GENUINE HIGH IL in YOU.