Anyone seen the movie Dark City? I watched it the other day and it really impacted me. Ive grown increasingly disillusioned with life as of late, and it brought some fairly unpleasant truths to my attention. Id like to hear your opinions on it.

Shell Beach is a metaphor for Happiness, everyone has a vague and brief memory of it. They’ve all been there apparently and have fond memories of it, and all want to go back. Unfortunately, nobody remembers how they got there or the circumstances that could retrace those fond memories. In our world, ask the average person when the last time they were happy is, they won't give you a truly concrete answer, but rather some vague and brief memory in childhood, or an extremely rare moment like child-birth, surrounded by 30 years of slight sadness. They will tell you instead there happiness will come in 5 years as soon as they (get a degree, spouse, career, money, new house, etc.). The irony here is that they said the exact same thing 5 years ago!

Conclusion: IT NEVER COMES. We always attribute happiness to a near future, and it always disappoints. If you ever manage to do the things we imagine bring us happiness, we will undoubtedly be disappointed in them. Lots of people go out to clubs and have friends and girlfriends, yet they too are miserable. For people like me, the problem is that we are romantically and socially incompetent. For socially well-adjusted people, the problem is that they have are missing a family, career, God, SOMETHING.

It seems as soon as you fulfill one need, a new one pops up. EVERYBODY is sad about something, you only appreciate the things you don't have. The ugly person wants a spouse desperately, and thinks the attractive person is lucky. The attractive person however doesn’t understand his relative blessing, and instead envies the rich person. Neither is happy. Wherever you are, you’ll imagine somewhere else as being better.

I went off on a bit of a tangent there, the movies is actually about the reliability of our memories, and how our minds delude and defend against unpleasant truths. I took it a step further.



Perhaps the smartest thing to do is give up. Life and Nature are far more influential and powerful than we are, and certainly than I am. How could I possibly compete? Perhaps human beings just aren’t conditioned to be happy, and this vague sense of unfulfillment is what motivates us to continue producing, hoping our children figure out what we can't.

Im not an emotional guy, but that movie really got me down. I got drunk as a skunk after watching it. It's not even about us individually, it's about the human condition as a whole, and whether their is hope in future generations. Is it really fair to subject more human beings to this?


Thanks for reading.
Dan


"John Murdoch: I just mean during the day. Daylight. When was the last time you remember seeing it? And I'm not talking about some distant, half-forgotten childhood memory, I mean like yesterday. Last week. Can you come up with a single memory? You can't, can you? You know something, I don't think the sun even... exists... in this place. 'Cause I've been up for hours, and hours, and hours, and the night never ends here."

If you were in a constant state of happiness nothing would ever get done. Humans are designed to chase a state of happiness (natural endorphin hit) that only lasts only a few moments and keeps moving further away, this keeps us progressing and evolving.

For me though, I am more addicted to adrenalin then endorphins.

We are all drug addicts waiting for our next hit.

wolf116 said:

If you were in a constant state of happiness nothing would ever get done. Humans are designed to chase a state of happiness (natural endorphin hit) that only lasts only a few moments and keeps moving further away, this keeps us progressing and evolving.

For me though, I am more addicted to adrenalin then endorphins.

We are all drug addicts waiting for our next hit.

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Thanks for replying.

Threads like this aren’t popular, I was surprised anybody read it, let alone replied to it. The world has become an increasingly confusing and dissociated place, and frankly, im no closer to understanding my presence here than I was 23 years ago.

I like your explanation. It’s beneficial for the long-term evolution of our species, but not very uplifting as individuals.

Call me selfish, but I don't care about those who follow and precede me. I was dead when the dinosaurs were here, and I will dead when the next set of babies comes. I’d gladly trade their progress for my own personal satisfaction.

I find it hard to justify my existence.

I read the thread title and instantly thought of that movie. Great movie! It has been such a long time since I've seen it though. I should bump it to the top of my Netflix queue.

Threads like this aren’t popular, I was surprised anybody read it, let alone replied to it. The world has become an increasingly confusing and dissociated place, and frankly, im no closer to understanding my presence here than I was 23 years ago.

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No one understands our presence in this world. Some blindly believe (faith). but none understand. I've searched for faith, but my mind won't accept the concept. Studying Anthropology set me free. It seems bleak to view humans as animals with no soul but it helped me to understand many things. Constant happiness is a myth and the pursuit of it will only lead to depression.

I like your explanation. It’s beneficial for the long-term evolution of our species, but not very uplifting as individuals.

Call me selfish, but I don't care about those who follow and precede me. I was dead when the dinosaurs were here, and I will dead when the next set of babies comes. I’d gladly trade their progress for my own personal satisfaction.

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I don't care either, but realizing emotions are only created for survival and progression purposes really gives you power over them and makes them seem insignificant.

I find it hard to justify my existence.

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Does your dog need to justify its existence?
My biggest problem is that I think too much. It can really get you down and depressed thinking about our pointless existence and the unknown of death. This especially effects my success with women (mostly the approaching part).

A recent friend of mine really changed my outlook on life, he has a great care-free life. He grew up on a small island village and hunted for his food. He basically acts on instincts alone. He will never be without a job, accommodation, girls or entertainment because after one year of being in this country he has made more friends then I have in my whole life. He never thinks things through and tells me off when I start over analyzing. After spending time with him you really start to realize it's better to embrace our animality.

wolf116 said:

No one understands our presence in this world. Some blindly believe (faith). but none understand. I've searched for faith, but my mind won't accept the concept. Studying Anthropology set me free. It seems bleak to view humans as animals with no soul but it helped me to understand many things. Constant happiness is a myth and the pursuit of it will only lead to depression.

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Nice.

I don't care either, but realizing emotions are only created for survival and progression purposes really gives you power over them and makes them seem insignificant.

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Easier said than done, unfortunately.

Does your dog need to justify its existence?
My biggest problem is that I think too much. It can really get you down and depressed thinking about our pointless existence and the unknown of death. This especially effects my success with women (mostly the approaching part).

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It’s hard to just stop thinking, I tried being drunk in public all the time, it doesn’t help much. After reading about love-shy, your mother’s temperment during her pregnancy with you greatly affects your hormonal makeup, and then there’s genetics. Neurotic, irritable and emotionally unstable mothers make inhibited, anxious and shy sons with low testosterone. I think we overrate nurture and our own abilities and decisions, it would be wiser to go to the drug store than buy a self-help book.

A recent friend of mine really changed my outlook on life, he has a great care-free life. He grew up on a small island village and hunted for his food. He basically acts on instincts alone. He will never be without a job, accommodation, girls or entertainment because after one year of being in this country he has made more friends then I have in my whole life. He never thinks things through and tells me off when I start over analyzing. After spending time with him you really start to realize it's better to embrace our animality.

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You’re right about embracing that insitucual mindset, but I don’t know if its possible without drugs or surgery.

I had lived on the basic philosophy than positive emotions can override any statistical or philosophical justification to die, but watching this movie made me wonder just how many people are actually positive and happy, compared to how many people live on the assumption that ‘one day’ things will get better.

The odds aren’t favorable. We tell children that they can be anything they want to be and encourage them to dream of being astronauts and movie stars, but that’s not true. Instead children grow up and blame their failures on external factors, and then have their own children saying “I’ll make sure my son isn’t exposed to _____, so he can be the basketball star I wasn’t!”. This cycle continues indefinitely. I can see the disappointment in my parents, I was brought here to mask their own failures.

If the positive emotions aren’t there, and statistics and logic predict an unsatisfactory future, we should be allowed to opt-out without discrimination. I can’t bring these ideas up in real life, they’ll stick me in a nut house.

It’s hard to just stop thinking, I tried being drunk in public all the time, it doesn’t help much. After reading about love-shy, your mother’s temperment during her pregnancy with you greatly affects your hormonal makeup, and then there’s genetics. Neurotic, irritable and emotionally unstable mothers make inhibited, anxious and shy sons with low testosterone. I think we overrate nurture and our own abilities and decisions, it would be wiser to go to the drug store than buy a self-help book.

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Yeah, being drunk does little for me as a social lubricant. I'm very jealous of people who can totally let go when pissed. I have noticed that guys who go wild, get into fights and hit on every girl when drunk are usually very socially adapt when sober anyway.



Interesting, I had never heard of love-shy before (I just did a little google work on it) but it describes me exactly. I have always assumed I had low testosterone levels as a child due to things like weak immune system, skinniness, sines problems, acne ect. This is why I'm into diet, MMA and powerlifting so much, not because I was naturally good at these things but because I was bad at them. Is there any book/web site worth reading on this subject?

You’re right about embracing that insitucual mindset, but I don’t know if its possible without drugs or surgery.

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I think it is partly possible. The biggest thing that I have had success with is to make friends with these extreme instinctive guys. This was easy for me because I am into weights, hunting and motorbikes. Now my two main friends are like this and I am slowly starting to act like them.

I had lived on the basic philosophy than positive emotions can override any statistical or philosophical justification to die, but watching this movie made me wonder just how many people are actually positive and happy, compared to how many people live on the assumption that ‘one day’ things will get better.

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I don't really know how to comment on this. Except that this is a strange philosophy and you should think about changing it because it is self destructive.

Maybe I should watch this movie but I don't really like to watch depressing movies.

The odds aren’t favorable. We tell children that they can be anything they want to be and encourage them to dream of being astronauts and movie stars, but that’s not true. Instead children grow up and blame their failures on external factors, and then have their own children saying “I’ll make sure my son isn’t exposed to _____, so he can be the basketball star I wasn’t!”. This cycle continues indefinitely. I can see the disappointment in my parents, I was brought here to mask their own failures.

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I have had no exposure to this sort of parenting or expectation. I think it must be more common in America. I had a abusive father but he always told me to be/do what ever I wanted, which I think is a good thing. I don't have any images in my head of a perfect life with a big house, trophy wife, a yaught and a big smile on my face. I think it's a good idea to cut off toxic parents just like I would anyone else.

If the positive emotions aren’t there, and statistics and logic predict an unsatisfactory future, we should be allowed to opt-out without discrimination. I can’t bring these ideas up in real life, they’ll stick me in a nut house.

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I don't understand this unsatisfactory future thing. What is a satisfactory future and who determines it? I find enjoyment in other things like the adrenalin rush from motorbikes, powerlifting or exploring the outdoors. Do you not find enjoyment in the challenge of improving your social skills? I know it's a corny line but "The journey is more important then the destination." is a very true statement for me.

‘Love-shy’ really opened my eyes.

I always thought it was something I would just grow out of, but it didn’t happen, and I don’t think it ever will without drugs, which I’m looking into. The gap between you and society only grows if untreated.

The definitive book is by Dr. Gilmartin, you can find the PDF here
http://www.love-shy.com/Gilmartin/toc.html. There is some pseudoscience intertwined, but 90% of it seems legit. I skipped a lot of sections, like astrology, music and movies.
If the link goes down or whatever, I can email you my copy.

Basic attributes of the love-shy: skinny, weak, non-assertive, neurotic, obsessive (particularly about women and love and beauty), difficulties concentrating, sensitive physically and emotionally, low anxiety threshold, excessive daydreaming, shy, bullied. Acne, poor immune system, sinuses and difficulty breathing through the nose, glasses, allergies are all part of the unfortunate package. There are questions about its relation to pervasive developmental disorders. After reading about aspergers and multicomplex developmental disorder, the descriptions fit like a glove for me, primarily the latter.

The future for these guys is very bleak; you would be wise to get treatment if this is you. Many have masters degrees and most are above-average intelligence, yet live in poverty and isolation. There entire lives seem to be centered around meeting and interacting with women, viewing them as the answer to all their problems. Those who went to talk therapy found it useless, Gilmartin recommends biological treatment.


If powerlifting and MMA have helped, then good for you, keep it up. But I would advise you against hoping for miracle cures, I too gained about 65lbs and became a good boxer, and it didn’t change much, except im less anxious around other males. It actually made me more bitter, since I was running out of environmental excuses. It had become clear that something was fundamentally wrong with me, not my circumstances.

You seem to have a more optimistic outlook on life than I do, and that’s good. If you find enjoyment in challenges and goal achievement, like improving social skills, good for you.


As for the ‘unsatisfactory future’, it’s a personal standard, and each must decide for them self. Some people are happy just scraping by and saying hi to the mailman, some people expect a lot more. I would be a terrible counselor or suicide hotline guy, since my recommendation for most people is ‘I agree you’d be better off dead, the sooner the better’. lol.

I wrote a realllllllllly long and meaningfull reply to this but I acidently hit the wrong button and deleted it =(

So basically I will quickly try and sum up what I had to say....

6-heads lewis and wolf116 we are very similar in that we think too much. Ignorance is bliss.

It’s hard to just stop thinking, I tried being drunk in public all the time, it doesn’t help much. After reading about love-shy, your mother’s temperment during her pregnancy with you greatly affects your hormonal makeup, and then there’s genetics. Neurotic, irritable and emotionally unstable mothers make inhibited, anxious and shy sons with low testosterone. I think we overrate nurture and our own abilities and decisions, it would be wiser to go to the drug store than buy a self-help book.

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And that will be 100% true for you if you carry that mindset.
Hapiness is an emotion not a lifestyle.
Stop being so fcking pessimistic.
No one is to blame but you. Blaming what mood you mother was in during her pregnancy is exactly the same as people who say that succesfull people are just lucky and they had no luck, it is the worlds fault who they are today. Oh and don't you think your mothers temprament would change once in awhile? Sounds like you are describing the average pregnant women anyway.

Your setting yourself up to fail. Keep up that attitude and enjoy a depressing drug fueled life. Meanwhile I'll be optimistic and change myself to lead a better life. Hell those traits of a love-shy person describe me, well at least the OLD me.

powerlifting and MMA have helped, then good for you, keep it up. But I would advise you against hoping for miracle cures, I too gained about 65lbs and became a good boxer, and it didn’t change much, except im less anxious around other males. It actually made me more bitter, since I was running out of environmental excuses. It had become clear that something was fundamentally wrong with me, not my circumstances.

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What if you put the same amount of fcking effort into overcoming your shyness? What if you did 100s of cold aproaches and conditioned yourself to be social like you conditioned your body to become bigger and lift heavier? How is getting bigger going to directly affect you in social situations anyway?

Stop trying to blame something else, be a man a take responsibility. Better yet, change yourself, it's been scientifically proven that you can. That good enough for you? Now go and actually do something instead of thinking.


(PS: I wish my original post was saved. It was better and more inspiring. Yet I'm sure this might help someone.)

SinJester said:

I wrote a realllllllllly long and meaningfull reply to this but I acidently hit the wrong button and deleted it =(

So basically I will quickly try and sum up what I had to say....

6-heads lewis and wolf116 we are very similar in that we think too much. Ignorance is bliss.



And that will be 100% true for you if you carry that mindset.
Hapiness is an emotion not a lifestyle.
Stop being so fcking pessimistic.
No one is to blame but you. Blaming what mood you mother was in during her pregnancy is exactly the same as people who say that succesfull people are just lucky and they had no luck, it is the worlds fault who they are today. Oh and don't you think your mothers temprament would change once in awhile? Sounds like you are describing the average pregnant women anyway.

Your setting yourself up to fail. Keep up that attitude and enjoy a depressing drug fueled life. Meanwhile I'll be optimistic and change myself to lead a better life. Hell those traits of a love-shy person describe me, well at least the OLD me.



What if you put the same amount of fcking effort into overcoming your shyness? What if you did 100s of cold aproaches and conditioned yourself to be social like you conditioned your body to become bigger and lift heavier? How is getting bigger going to directly affect you in social situations anyway?

Stop trying to blame something else, be a man a take responsibility. Better yet, change yourself, it's been scientifically proven that you can. That good enough for you? Now go and actually do something instead of thinking.


(PS: I wish my original post was saved. It was better and more inspiring. Yet I'm sure this might help someone.)

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I no longer talk to doctors, because like you, they assume anybody who doesn't want to be alive must be depressed. Ironically the bleak outlook on life in itself is not depressing, it’s the detachment from everyone else’s outlook that makes them lonely and depressed. It’s like Roddy Piper in They Live, walking around in a daze noone else can see.

Suicide forums are filled with the most pathetic and attention-seeking people you can imagine, I was hoping more useful minds would be here.

Willpower is MUCH inferior to biological structure, just look at the effects of drugs. Take enough acid and your beliefs and ideas are completely out the window. Take prescription drugs and you are a different person within months. Get a lobotomy, and then tell me about human spirit and the power of choice.

A healthy person might take a drug that causes them extreme panic attacks, to the point of blacking out during casual conversation. Would you tell them to "be a man" and suck it up? of course not, that would be stupid, since there is an obvious and well-documented physical explanation.

Much like the masses, you drastically overrate your own personal power over nature. The amount of love-shys who overcome their deficit through courage, and the amount of autistics and social phobics who live normal and fulfilling social lives through sheer effort are all probably under 10%. To conclude that the other 90% are simply cowards is ridiculously ignorant.



Btw, I don’t blame anyone for my problems, nor do I think I really have that many problems. I don’t seek pity or attention, just conversation and some understanding of myself. The only people I am upset with are my parents, they have admitted their selfish reasons for bringing 4 kids into a family with a history of mental illness: “that’s what women do”, “I thought you’d make good doctors”, and “its good to have kids around when you get old”

As an aside, don’t forget that genes and beliefs that encourage suicide and pessimism would logically be taken out of the gene pool. People who kill themselves early do not pass their genes and beliefs that encouraged it.

Genes and messages of hope and joy and desire to reproduce obviously get passed on at a much more rapid and consistent rate than genes for depression and suicide and celibacy.

This is my favorite website:

http://www.sexualsense.org/deadalive.htm
http://www.sexualsense.org/drugs.htm

The author recommends great orgasms and drugs as the solution to life’s built-in dilemmas, it is hard to disagree.


“These busybodies typically cannot accept that other, more rational contemporaries prefer to just opt out. They cannot accept that young adults do not care about the social good, don't intend to have families, are not bent towards a successful professional live, but just want to take drugs, and die early.”

“Drugs that are a viable option for young adults to lead an unproductive life followed by an early, painless death, are totally against the interest of governments.

As children, all members of society are a cost factor. They also bind part of the productivity of their parents who typically are in their productive prime.

Once children are young adults, it's payback time. They are expected to work, earn money for themselves, and pay heavily into social security systems, be they formal or informal.

When young adults opt for hard drugs, they don't pay back. Not their parents, not society as a whole. In the contrary, they continue to be a cost factor. And a public order risk. “
---------------

“I have not elected to be alive. At best, I have been unintended; the product of an accident. Or worse, I have been planned, not for my benefit, but to add pleasure to the life of my parents.

If we, as human beings, were fully rational we would hurry to commit suicide a quickly as possible, in an as comfortable a manner as possible. Sleeping tablets or a bullet into the head. Whatever is fast, or at least painless.

Alas, we are not rational beings, but slaves of nature. We are not built with an intrinsic ability to opt out. Rather, our instincts determine that we toil along. Even during terminal suffering, we clinch to life, always hoping for another, a better day.
Great men have committed suicide on a rational basis when they assumed that life no longer had much in store for them. Sigmund Freud, Ernest Hemingway ...

While committing suicide may be the most sensible solution anytime in our lives, the question is for those of us who do not have the courage to proceed (like me): what else to do with one's life?”

Dark City is amongst my favorite films, often coming in at third place whenever I poll myself. My first experience with the film was catching the last few minutes of the film, from the brilliant scene of the Shell Beach brick wall and onward, on Showtime. I was so captivated that I knew I had to watch the whole thing. I've watched it at least six times, although that was years ago.

The brilliant thing about the film is that it's a different film with every watching; you pick up on so many minor details and realize it's a completely different film; that it could easily be four different films depending on four different motives on behalf of the filmmakers. I would have to watch the film again to refresh my memory, but what I took away from the film was not a theme of happiness but identity. That we go around in our lives thinking we are someone, telling others we are that someone, but in objective reality we are someone completely different; that the more you think into yourself, in terms of defining your essence, the more how everything seems to unravel. It's all blurry. Consider the words of Detective Walenski: "I've been trying to remember things, CLEARLY remember things, from my past, but the more I try to think back, the more it all starts to unravel. None of it seems real. It's like I've just been dreaming this life, and when I finally wake up, I'll be somebody else. Somebody totally different!" It's so easy looking objectively at others, but when the microscope is turned upon oneself, a real mystery arises... who am I?

(Along the same lines is Memento, which illustrates just how fallible is human memory. It's not that our memories are objective video tape, but rather extremely malleable and suggestible.)

I went off on a bit of a tangent there, the movies is actually about the reliability of our memories, and how our minds delude and defend against unpleasant truths. I took it a step further.

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And that's okay.

The definitive book is by Dr. Gilmartin, you can find the PDF here
http://www.love-shy.com/Gilmartin/toc.html. There is some pseudoscience intertwined, but 90% of it seems legit. I skipped a lot of sections, like astrology, music and movies.
If the link goes down or whatever, I can email you my copy.

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Thanks man, I will read the book for sure and leave my comments for discussion.

Basic attributes of the love-shy: skinny, weak, non-assertive, neurotic, obsessive (particularly about women and love and beauty), difficulties concentrating, sensitive physically and emotionally, low anxiety threshold, excessive daydreaming, shy, bullied. Acne, poor immune system, sinuses and difficulty breathing through the nose, glasses, allergies are all part of the unfortunate package. There are questions about its relation to pervasive developmental disorders. After reading about aspergers and multicomplex developmental disorder, the descriptions fit like a glove for me, primarily the latter.

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Two years ago, this described me perfectly (bar the glasses). Now only the; difficulties concentrating, low anxiety threshold, excessive daydreaming, poor immune system, allergies and sinuses problems apply. I just work on these problems one by one. I'm also dyslexic.

The future for these guys is very bleak; you would be wise to get treatment if this is you. Many have masters degrees and most are above-average intelligence, yet live in poverty and isolation. There entire lives seem to be centered around meeting and interacting with women, viewing them as the answer to all their problems. Those who went to talk therapy found it useless, Gilmartin recommends biological treatment.

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What does biological treatment involve? If you end up taking drugs for this, I would like it if you could tell me how it goes. I'm hesitant to get any prescription drugs for it because I believe that one day I will kick myself in the ass and just get over it.

If powerlifting and MMA have helped, then good for you, keep it up. But I would advise you against hoping for miracle cures, I too gained about 65lbs and became a good boxer, and it didn’t change much, except im less anxious around other males. It actually made me more bitter, since I was running out of environmental excuses. It had become clear that something was fundamentally wrong with me, not my circumstances.

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Yeah I never really expected it to help me with the ladies. I just did it because I was weak and wanted to be strong and healthy when I was not. I now have a deep passion for strength training and truly love it.

You seem to have a more optimistic outlook on life than I do, and that’s good. If you find enjoyment in challenges and goal achievement, like improving social skills, good for you.

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Not always, sometimes I just stay in my room and do nothing for days, living out fantasy in my head and feeling sorry for myself. But it doesn't last too long, I will start plotting a new course for improvement, grab some camping gear, go for a road trip by myself somewhere, get up early, swim in the beach, then a run and then some fishing. I have found peace in being alone and sometimes even prefer it. I am also going to start taking a book with me to help overcome my dyslexia. My next project is to build a canoe.

As for the ‘unsatisfactory future’, it’s a personal standard, and each must decide for them self. Some people are happy just scraping by and saying hi to the mailman, some people expect a lot more. I would be a terrible counselor or suicide hotline guy, since my recommendation for most people is ‘I agree you’d be better off dead, the sooner the better’. lol.

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I don't agree that anyone should be placing a standard they must live up to. I just want to experience life, the good and bad.


Do you have any hobbies or passions anymore? I found that I really need to develop this part of my life to compensate for my lack of social life. Any hobby that requires 100% of your thinking is good IMO.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Love_shy

Gilmartin estimates that love-shyness afflicts approximately 1.5 percent of American males. According to Gilmartin, love-shyness is, like most human psychological characteristics, the result of some combination of biological (genetic/developmental) and environmental (cultural, familial, religious, etc.) factors (see also: nature versus nurture). Gilmartin believes that shyness is a condition which needs to be cured. He says in his book "Shyness is NEVER "good". Shyness obviates free choice and self-determination, and it stands squarely in the way of responsible self-control and self-management." Again, he states "Simply put, SHYNESS IS NEVER HEALTHY."

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He mentions several possible biological causes of love-shyness, most notably low maternal testosterone during fetal development, nasal polyps, and hypoglycemia.

Crucial factors exacerbating negative development during the love-shy male's childhood are:

School bullying. Love-shy boys are vulnerable to bullying from their peer group, due to their shyness and inhibition. Non-conformism to peer group norms also makes the boy a target through no fault of his own.
Parental upbringing. Where a child receives primarily negative stimuli from his parents (e.g. corporal punishment, child abuse, verbal abuse, criticism, 'put-downs', negative comparisons, indifference) this will most likely cause the boy to retreat further and further into his 'shell'.
With so many negative stimuli from crucial relationships in one's childhood, the love-shy boy becomes a social isolate. He learns to associate these crucial interactions (i.e. with parents, peer group) with hurt feelings and is likely to avoid social interaction. Social isolation becomes a 'vicious circle' for the love-shy individual as the years go by, and inhibits his chances in interaction with the opposite sex, as well as in other crucial areas of life such as his career.

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Sounds like most of it is enviromental... Where you getting all this information that its biological? In that link you gave? Well as I don't believe it I am not reading all that. Notice what I put in bold though?

I might believe it if it is proved and recognized as a medical disorder. Now obviously some people do need help with medical disorders and need to take drugs but this is not the majority of the population. We can't have every nerdy guy believing they have some psuedo-diseaso and taking all sorts of drugs when all they needed to do was get out there.

Basic attributes of the love-shy: skinny, weak, non-assertive, neurotic, obsessive (particularly about women and love and beauty), difficulties concentrating, sensitive physically and emotionally, low anxiety threshold, excessive daydreaming, shy, bullied. Acne, poor immune system, sinuses and difficulty breathing through the nose, glasses, allergies are all part of the unfortunate package.

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Yeah that could describe me. Well the OLD me. Did I put it down to a biological disorder? No, I went out and changed, I've even seen this love-shyness thing before and though I had it for awhile, but I didn't believe it in the end.. All of those things are seperate traits. It could describe my dad perfectly, yet obviously he married and had me. Think about this. There are people who are naturally gifted and are naturally buff or get results heaps quickly in the gym right? It's because of their genes. Now a normal or below average person can get those same results with a good diet and routine, lots of hard work and persistance. Why couldn't the same be said to social situations? Now some people are naturally more sensative, I'm one of them, but you can desensatise yourself to things by exposing yourself to them. The same could be done with social situations.

Your forgetting one thing. We are HUMAN. We have a little thing called rational thinking. It's what seperates us from animals and monkeys.

Wolf, I too am hesitant about prescription drugs. I’ve researched a lot into recreational drugs, the only difference for me is that prescriptions are cheaper and more consistent. It helps if you have insurance, which I don’t. I also have some fears based on books like 1984 and mass mind control, but when you have nothing to lose, none of that matters. Even if prescription drugs are a big conspiracy to enforce an inhumane system and make the elite richer, if it helps you as an individual, then who cares.

I got a prescription for Zoloft generic, I just started today, I can let you know how it goes if you’re interested, though every SSRI affects everyone differently. SSRI’s apparently make you apathetic and numb emotionally, decrease your libido, and you can sleep like 11hrs/day, which may be good for some.

I would advise you against waiting for a kick in the ass. I don’t know enough about you personally to form an opinion, but statistics in general for people who don’t get treatment and expect to overcome it naturally are discouraging. That pdf will make you laugh and cry.

I understand being alone, I prefer that too. I haven’t had or wanted any male friends in years. Gilmartin explains this as a common trait, but can be disastrous. Most people meet partners through social networks, which love-shys typically don’t have. They are too anxious to approach, and don’t have anyone to introduce them to women.

To keep my mind off my troubles, I’ve taken up gambling. Put 50$ on any bet and it will occupy your mind the rest of the day. I win at about 55% rate, which after vig is a very slight profit.

Your forays into wildlife and nature are admirable, that’s what I dream of doing, moving to a rural place and living in tune with nature. Kudos on actually doing it.

I really hope things get better for you.

Deep dish, it certainly is a deep and layered film, and I respect your analysis on these topics. I was impacted most by Shell Beach being unattainable, haven’t though about much else.

I’ll have to re-watch this along with Memento and Matrix.

Speaking of identity, Being John Malkovich made me consider that. I saw people willing to give up their own identity and individuality in exchange for love and acceptance. I loved how Craig approached Maxine with all sorts of metaphysical and philosophical questions, and she brushed them aside, instead wondering how to exploit the situation to make money. Craig saw Maxine as the answer to all his woes and insecurities, when really she was just some hot shallow babe without any answers.

The funniest parts were that nobody actually knew or cared who Malkovich was, they were just so desperate to be someone else. And when Craig entered Malkovich initially, his celebrity lifestyle turned out to be eating toast, reading the paper, working, and doing other mundane things.

Just like in Adapatation, the life of a genius screenwriter really isn’t that great, in that movie it’s much worse than his dopey and shallow brother’s, which is probably Kauffman's view of the masses.

SinJester, you’re correct in many points you made.

First lets remember wikipedia an extremely summarized and poorly chopped version of the book, not very reliable. I didn’t mean to steer the conversation this direction, hopefully there isn’t much else to say about love-shy.

I was unclear earlier, but my point isn’t that nurture is irrelevant, just that the nurture aspects of it are beyond the control of the kid, and show a consistent pattern among these personalities. Social development and self image development occur ages 10-15 or something like that, and you can’t expect a 12 year old kid to have much control over his environment.

The vast majority of them have bizarre, two-faced, irritable and emotionally unpredictable mothers, compared to the affectionate, inviting and helpful mothers of the extroverts studied in the book. It gets into detail about how the mother’s mood during pregnancy affects the fetus’ development.

If they all have similar backgrounds and similar fates, you cant really attribute their condition to individual circumstances. That’s what I was getting at. Their backgrounds are more consistent and extreme than typical computer geeks.

My father was like that as well, he was lucky to grow up in a small village where relationships are basically pre-arranged. He is clearly incompetent on his own accord. And let’s be honest here, the women these men get are not very desirable. Manipulative, controlling, emotional, unstable, etc. Hardly a fulfilling romantic life.

ALL the "problems" we are facing are the product of an intended effect.

That is, what you expereince is supposed to make you stronger.


As humans, we are "Irritable".

That means the environment DOES Something to US, and we "react" back to it.
If not, we become stale and stagnant, and REGRESS.
So "LIFE" throws things at us, and we eventually ,sooner or later find Methods of DEALING with them.
Crisis, conflicts, challenges, Love, hate, Indifference.........these are all natural parts of life.

The Secret is HOW YOU Deal with them.

They are supposed to jump start you into ACTION.

(though many people find themselves leaning back, and apathetic to their problems and begin to take the victim mentality and blame everything , instead of just learning tools to deal with problems and make things WORK to your FAVOR.)

("What I resist, PERSISTS. What I EMBRACE, I gain POWER to USE")

This is on purpose.

The end result is for you to break free, and break out and seek Enlightenment.

All these things that are happening to you, are CATALYSTS to spark you into the direction of Self Realization,

And the end result of that, is to find your Ultimate peace with the Divine, your Spirtiual Connection.


It's all a plan.

Don't be fooled. The entire reason you yearn for belonging is because you are disconnected to your Spiritual Self.
YOU simply cannot 'see' the beauty and light that surround you.
So we 'fight' AGAINST Life, or RUN AWAY from Life, or COWER in FEAR from Life, or BLAME EVERYTHING around us for our Life.

Until we RE Connect to Our SPIRITUALITY.

Most poeple don't know this, and a lot of people don't care for this either...
A LOT more people don't even understand it at all..

That's ok, too.

a LOT of people try ot make fun of it, and deride it and the people who talk about it ,so they can feel better about themselves.


(the truth is most of your Suffering is because you are not connected to Spirit, that's OK, most people aren't either)

This creates a 'vacuum',a VOID of sorts, and makes you feel as if you are 'empty" inside.
You begin to realize it when you start forming an Identity out of necessity.

You eventually form your Identity because you want to KNOW your PLACE in the World.
After copying and imitating, and faking, and acting ..

You eventualyl resign yourself Once and For ALL to FIND out WHO YOU REALLY ARE.

You conflict with your "loneliness' and 'emptiness', you fight against it.

You become needy and desperate.

Then you do without.

Then you find Peace.

And you find Fulfillment.



You begin to deal with it, and the feelings and try to find the causes and hopefully the CURE for your Emptiness, but it is not that you are EMPTY really..

........it's that you haven't realized it, you cannot recognize it yet.


This takes expereinces and learning.

Sharing and growing.

You and me, and all of us.,,,,,are walking towards the Light.

We're all on the same road.

But I may be further up along it, and you may be a little further behind.
That's ok, too.






Questions?

I tried to read the whole thread but couldn't, because it hit too close to home. I can't go back to the mindset presented here. Why? Because I've seen it doesn't have to be like this. I've changed too much. I had the strength to ease out of the martyr complex. Which is just another matrix.

I hope you read Interceptor's post, and his other posts. He understands the disconnect you're feeling. I know that if you work on yourself, and learn to internalize certain concepts, like emotional strength, personal boundary, win/win situations, masculine polarity, present moment awareness over ego, congruency, ABUNDANCE.... you will start to see little glimmers of a life you may have not thought possible, trying to break through a lifetime of being the martyr. I gurantee you that all those concepts are the opposite of what is being discussed here. And since what's being discussed here is misery, and those are the opposite, hmm...


It's weird. I'm still getting used to it. I grew up idolizing Morrissey (the gloomy singer from the smiths) BECAUSE of his alienation and said "I am THAT". And of course all the depressing films and books that gave me an excuse to not grow as a MAN. We could have a great discussion on who has read the most nihlisitc books or seen the most critically acclaimed films that make you leave the theatre wondering what the hell you are doing on this planet and if perhaps you're just an alien and can't relate to humanity.

But I'm not that anymore. I don't know what I'm becoming but I know what I USED to be, and it's this thread. FVCK THAT!!!!

DO NOT CANONIZE OR GLAMORIZE YOURSELF FOR SUFFERING.
That is one of the most DIFFICULT choices you can EVER make.

There is NO glory in it. Misery is misery and joy is joy and the difference between the two is CHOICE.

CHOICE. Not medications. Not "The newly discovered diaries of the famous philosopher who had no courage".

Well said reset.