Is it Ever Right to Call a Woman a Second Time if She Doesn't Return Your Call?

[Frank2500]

I was wondering if any of you folks on here think it's ever worth calling a woman a second time after she gives you her number but doesn't return your call. When I was in my early 20s, I called a second time and that worked out with only about two women. Now that I'm almost 30 and trying to shut off the AFC tendencies, I've developed a personal philosophy of not running after women and of never calling a woman again if she doesn't return my call. I got two phone numbers recently from some women at my gym and neither of them called me back when I called and left a message. Yet, when we had our face-to-face conversation, I thought the vibe was quite positive and that there was potential for chemistry. One of the women was the really big booty woman I had been trying to talk to for almost a year at my gym. The other one was an older chick at my gym I just met this week.


I remain inclined not to bother calling them because based on personal experience, a lot of these women just love attention. They love nothing more than a guy acting desperate by calling them over and over even though he knows deep inside that the chances of him getting called back are slim to none. Then you put them in positions of power and when you run into them again in places like the gym, they expect you to barely be able to walk with your head up or to look at them in the eye when you walk past them. Heck, during my early 20s and AFC days, I remember meeting women who agreed to go out on a date with me some time, gave me their phone numbers, but then suddenly told me that they had boyfriends and couldn't go out with me for a date. One of them claimed that "you are a very attractive guy, and it was hard to resist." American women just amaze me.



But I think not calling these women ever again and continuing to go on with my life in general and at the gym with confidence, and not giving them any attention communicates that I'm not desperate and that if anything, I see myself as the prize and have other options.

[seth]

Well, I live in the much famed Eastern Europe, and I tell you, even TODAY I have had this happen. Just like you, I had good initial interaction, then I call, and they don't answer or call back. It is amazing how rudeness and assholeness are simply part of the game today.
My question is different then yours. I'm thinking of leaving them text messages with some simple insult like "Bicth!", just to know somewhere in this world there's a guy who can see through their crap.

[Frank2500]

I don't think sending them text messages saying "*****" would be appropriate. Here in the US, doing something like that could get you in trouble. There are all kinds of laws in this country and as far as law enforcement is concerned here in the US, women have a lot of power. Do something like that and all she needs to do is call the cops to say that you're harrassing and threatening her. Heck, you could happen to be walking several feet behind a woman you don't even know and if she wants, all she has to do is tell a cop that you're stalking her and they'll put you in handcuffs and give you a ride to the station before asking you any questions.


For me personally, I think I've past that stage to be chasing after women. At 29, I'm a bit too old to be doing this. I mean, why would I for example call a woman a second time who I met on a Tuesday, called on a Thursday to try to set up a date for Saturday and yet, who never called me back? Not calling back sends a clear message and calling even a second time only makes her feel more powerful. I don't give such women that opportunity. I mean, I met two women years ago who took my own number but didn't give me theirs, yet they still called me much later when I least expected it. But if a woman gives you hers and it's the right number and she doesn't return your call, I think it's definitely not worth wasting one's time trying to call again.

[guru1000]

Never call a second time.

Remember you are looking for you a girl with high interest or you are not interested.

Not returning a phone call, is a breach of respect. You are most important to you. Never compromise your integrity.

Even if you have no self respect or integrity, and you call this girl a second time, you immediately set the frame that she is of higher value. At that point, the rapport is dead. So you lose your self respect and the girl as well.

At the end of the day, all you are left with is you.

Let's as well look at the psychology of the man-woman relationship. Why do they say "You are the prize". At the beginning or throughout the relationship, if the WOMAN IS LED TO BELIEVE SHE IS OF HIGHER VALUE, THE RELATIONSHIP IS OVER.

There is only one way for a Man-Woman relationship to exist harminously. You, as the man, ALWAYS have to be of equal or higher value. You as the symbol of stability, support and a PILLAR OF STRENGTH will always NEED TO BE OF HIGHER VALUE.

Back to the OP question and to repeat; You cannot call twice because you set the frame of lower value by doing do. It is immediately over.

The key is to try to make the woman chase you. If that cannot be accomplished, paint the picture as if she is. TRY TO HOOK HER AS FAST AS POSSIBLE, THEN LAY YOUR IRON FIST DOWN.

[Frank2500]

That's exactly where I stand on this, guru. You spoke as if you could read my mind. I guess one of the positive things about having been through a lot of painful dating experiences over and over, is that you gain experience. Those experiences make you develop a spine, solidify your heart and almost basically make you immune to the wounds of the dating scene here in America. And with American women, you need that kind of resilience and thick-skinned nature to survive a lot of the crap that you're gonna have to deal with on a regular basis.

[DJDamage]

I say fvck it, give her a call what's the worst that can happen? Its better to know she is not interested then assume she is not interested, sh1t happens.

If I get a number, the first couple of time I don't expect a woman to call me at all. What I do expect is that when I call to make a date, that she will show up to the date. There is no need for her to call me back to chitchat, that is what I am going to be doing on the date. After the third date, that's when you should expect a call back cause you already have some sort rapport with this women, she is more comfortable around you and you can tell things are headed on the right direction.

[Frank2500]

DJDamage, I completely understand your point, but I'm still more inclined to agree with guru and stand firm by not calling this woman back. I've done that so far with three women already--all from my gym and when I had a chance to run into them again after that, I could tell from the looks in their eyes that a lot of them seemed shocked to see that I never attempted to reach them more than once. This issue of equal or higher value and of being a challenge and a mystery is very important in terms of American dating. If anyone knows this first hand, it is me, based on countless painful experiences that I have had. You never want to put a woman in a position of power like that.


The fact of the matter is that if this most recent woman at my gym who I met on Tuesday this week and called on Thursday to try setting up a date for today (Saturday) isn't calling me back, it sends a clear message. If she wanted to meet me for the date, she would have called me back. I don't think it is right to assume that a woman would show up at a proposed location for a date when she isn't even returning your call. That's an easy way to end up being stood up and return home even more disappointed and discouraged. I have past that stage of letting women constantly feel they are of higher value than me. It ain't gonna happen and I'm sticking with my decision. I personally think that when you don't call a woman more than once, it shows her that she's not the only woman in the world and that her decision not to call you has a very minimal if any impact upon your life.

[joekerr31]

just like we talk about how to keep the upper hand with women (ie. the frame), there are women out there who are skilled in gaining the upper hand over a man.

this could easily be a simple tactic of gaining that upper hand. if you call a second or third time she's established the frame that she is the prize and you are lucky she is giving you the time of day. also, remember, there are women out there who have read stupid books on how to catch a man - books that give stupid advice like 'never call him back, make him chase you.'

the question merely becomes do you want to deal with a woman who is controlling the frame and try to reverse it once you are dating her.

but theres no question that either her IL is low or she is playing games.

if you aren't interested in such a woman, then dont bother calling her back.

if you're just looking to tap that *ss, then you can play her games until you hit it, then quit it. :)

[STR8UP]

Back to the OP question and to repeat; You cannot call twice because you set the frame of lower value by doing do. It is immediately over.

There is some truth to this, however, I see no harm in trying ONE MORE TIME.

With women its two strikes, you're out.

The whole key to this is recognizing when you are wasting your time. A quick phone call a second time around isn't much time lost, and although I agree that it does tend to set the wrong frame, you can't expect every woman you meet to be falling over herself for a date with her right after you get her number. If she DOES return the second call it's not that hard to create that attraction on a first date and re establich the frame.

[joekerr31]

There is some truth to this, however, I see no harm in trying ONE MORE TIME.

With women its two strikes, you're out.




and we also have to remember there are lots of women who have been conditioned by AFCs to bust your balls. heck, she probably does this with all guys and 90% of them just keep calling back over and over and over until they reach her.

the only thing i will say is that once you've been with a mature, respectful woman who doesn't play this kind of crap, your tolerance level for it goes way down and so does your interest in women who do it.

[armadon]

I always in debate with myself in calling back a second time. I know when I call the second time I delete the number and if she calls she calls. She did put herself on the sh*t list though and it wil take a bunch of work to get off it. If she can make her way of my sh*t list then I know she wants to make something work.

I want to clarify though that the second call back is only after I have been on a date with the women and the date went average or better. If I haven't been out with her before the number gets thrown away after the first non call back.

[Frank2500]

Ain't gonna call a second time, guys. I've been through several experiences like this in the past during my AFC days and I'm way past that stage at this point and age in my life. A lot of the helpful advice we receive on this site talks a lot about being able to understand the hints shallow women give, and to judge them by action and not by looks or empty words. I've certainly learned to do that. No matter how badly I may want to be intimate with a woman or how big I think her butt may be, I will never compromise my respect. Once you put them in positions of power, that's pretty much it. You lose respect and earning it back becomes extremely difficult.

[joekerr31]

Once you put them in positions of power, that's pretty much it. You lose respect and earning it back becomes extremely difficult.


extremely difficult? try impossible. even if you can recover it short term, long term they will always remember that there is an AFC lurking in you, and that no matter how thick the vault is that you buried him, if they take a sledge hammer to you they will be able to set him free.

plus, i just don't understand why guys have an interest in trying to reverse low IL. i mean, its REALLY hard to do. and even if you can get it up to high IL, the odds of it dropping back down to low IL are way higher.

better to game the chics who at least have moderate IL in you.

[Bible_Belt]

I'd wait like a month, and then leave a message where you are so excited that it sounds like you just won the lottery:

omg, you would not believe what just happened! Call me back.

or

I have a secret that I'm dying to tell someone. I have not told a single person yet. Do you want to hear it?


Curiosity is powerful in women; they are like cats that way. When they call back, you are on your own. Laugh at them for being so interested in you, and tell them it's a long story and you'll tell them over coffee/dinner/drinks whatever.

[Francisco d'Anconia]

and we also have to remember there are lots of women who have been conditioned by AFCs to bust your balls. heck, she probably does this with all guys and 90% of them just keep calling back over and over and over until they reach her.

the only thing i will say is that once you've been with a mature, respectful woman who doesn't play this kind of crap, your tolerance level for it goes way down and so does your interest in women who do it.

:yes: All true. Don't become a nuisance like an AFC and it should be all good. She'll either call back and touch base or she won't. Either way it's an opportunity to gage her IL. Truly interested women will give you the chance to raise her IL; ones who aren't interested or more interested in game playing will do something completely different.

[Francisco d'Anconia]

And remember, turn your caller ID off every now and then so she won't know who's calling, just "private number."

I don't know about you guys but any calls from private numbers drop really low onto my "need to answer" list.

[joekerr31]

And remember, turn your caller ID off every now and then so she won't know who's calling, just "private number."

wtf? i would never do this. nothing screams afc like tricking her into taking yoru call.

[ketostix]

Here's some of my thoughts on this situation relative to you Frank. I agree with Str8up in that you should give it two tries set something up, with the second attempt coming a few days later. If she doesn't come through on your second attempt you probably should drop her. You haven't lost anything by showing her some interest. And if you call a couple times and then do a take away it has more effectiveness.

For girls who you will see in say the gym some point later, it still applies, but if she's ignored your first call and you're going to see her at the gym most likely in a day or two, you probably should ignore her at the gym, maybe even talk to other girls. Then if you do decide to call her again you should have a little more leverage. The main thing is you do have to show some interest and pursue the girl some, that's what will make your take aways all the more effective if she's flaky. You just don't want to show too much interest and keep showing her interest after she's flaked. It's generally good for you to play hot and cold with her and insert jealous anywhere you can.

[Apollo]

Try calling once, if she doesn't pickup then don't leave a message. Call a second time a few days later and leave a message. Leave it at that.

Frank, when you left a message what did you say?

[STR8UP]

Try calling once, if she doesn't pickup then don't leave a message. Call a second time a few days later and leave a message. Leave it at that.

Exactly.

At that point all you have lost is a few minutes of your time.

I'm all about walking away, making sure you don't "give her power", but at that point you really have nothing to lose.

And although I don't know if I would do it in this case, Bible Belt's curiosity idea is GOLD.

I sometimes chat online with this chick I know who is going to school up north. No doubt she's a typical college chick and is either chatting with two other people, or doing homework, or SOMETHING that is distracting.

I noticed whenever she's drifting out of the convo, if I say something like "guess what?" she will respond "what?" Then I will say something like "nevermind....i probably shouldn't say anything". By the time we go back and forth a couple of times I have her FULL attention. She's DYING to know the "secret".

If you follow something like this up with a JUICY story, something about sex, it's REALLY easy to make her horny as hell. Actually anything that is scandalous will get her attention, but talking about sex is the best.

I'm gonna have to start using this more often. It's so damn easy to make the generic statement up front, banter back and forth for a minute until you think of a story. Fun fun!

[iqqi]

Someone hasn't read confident persistence...

[ketostix]

Exactly.

At that point all you have lost is a few minutes of your time.

I'm all about walking away, making sure you don't "give her power", but at that point you really have nothing to lose.

And although I don't know if I would do it in this case, Bible Belt's curiosity idea is GOLD.

I sometimes chat online with this chick I know who is going to school up north. No doubt she's a typical college chick and is either chatting with two other people, or doing homework, or SOMETHING that is distracting.

I noticed whenever she's drifting out of the convo, if I say something like "guess what?" she will respond "what?" Then I will say something like "nevermind....i probably shouldn't say anything". By the time we go back and forth a couple of times I have her FULL attention. She's DYING to know the "secret".

If you follow something like this up with a JUICY story, something about sex, it's REALLY easy to make her horny as hell. Actually anything that is scandalous will get her attention, but talking about sex is the best.

I'm gonna have to start using this more often. It's so damn easy to make the generic statement up front, banter back and forth for a minute until you think of a story. Fun fun!

This is a good point/tip. It follows with the reasoning that there's nothing wrong with using a good lure to bait in your fish. A lot of people say "If a girl's interested in you, she'll make it obvious". Well I don't think they will always make it obvious, women do play games to weed guys out. If a person's idea is he's just going to try one time and if the girl doesn't make it obvious and easy then she gets nexted, then you're going to next a lot of girls and be settling for only the ones that pick you. I know I can't depend on girls I'm attracted to who pick me and make things happen without me having to put some effort into it.

[STR8UP]

If you are ever talking to a chick and you feel the convo slipping into a dull rut, thats all you gotta do to get the rapport going again.

I made that mistake with the Lebanese chick. We would talk on the phone for ten of fifteen minutes, and somehow we would get on the subject of the weather or work or some other bullsh!t that had no conductivity, no charge. But when I was out with her I got to talking about my trip to Amsterdam, exotic foods, etc. and you could feel the electricity. For some reason our phone convos tended to stall, which is ok cause I would rather get her face to face anyway.

[DjVelvet]

Someone hasn't read confident persistence...

Imo, This is a point that we guys have to take note.

I post a topic about this before. confidence perservance. Quoted from Giovanne Casanova.

http://www.sosuave.net/forum/showthread.php?t=119125

We can't go around nexting women without trying. Ofcourse, don't try too hard.

[drmeathead]

i see nothing wrong with calling the second time a few days later. or even a text works better as then they arent worthy of a call. if you call the second time though you should downgrade your plans. if it was dinner and a movie for example on ur first call...the second should be for a round of mini golf or some other date that is a less involved time and economic commitment and it should be on a non date night like a sunday night or a tuesday at lunch time. and when they do call back answer and be brief.

if they dont answer the second call faaack em

[WaterTiger]

Wait a few days and call her back. Answering machines can fail, calls get lost and batteries die. The electronic toys we depend on are not perfect. If she doesn't respond after 2 calls....then you should next her.

[mrRuckus]

I say fvck it, give her a call what's the worst that can happen? Its better to know she is not interested then assume she is not interested, sh1t happens.

Girls have all kinds of stupid rules and games too. Like "i never call a guy." Or "he has to work for me a little bit." Or they're just too chicken sh1t to initiate a call.

I don't think i'd call twice since I don't have the patience and i tend to just get mad at women for being stupid and say to hell with them... but i don't see the downside of a second call really.

I've had myspace girls who have written me pages of emails who just stop dead and don't reply back.. then like a week later suddenly reply almost as if it's a test to see if i'll go running around in little circles yelling "where'd she go where'd she go" and when i don't they reinitiate at which point i'll bust on them for it and tell them to give me their number.

[Frank2500]

Thanks to you all for your comments. Been away from the computer for a while. I still maintain my personal philosophy: I never call more than once. I have passed that stage. If I were still in my early 20's, maybe I would have tried one or two more times. It's been my experience that a lot of women who won't return your call the first time generally never call you back anyway. I'm not going to let any woman think I'm desperate and frustrated. I just don't have time to put up with unnecessary running around from women. I respect myself.


There was an interesting development after I left the forum after posting last Saturday, though. She actually called my cell but didn't leave me a message. But she sent me a text message saying that she was sorry she wouldn't be able to go out last Saturday and that she leaves for California this Friday...but that after the holidays, she would be available. That was when I was just about to go to the gym. I sent her a text back to acknowledge her message and let her know that was cool...then I teased her saying I hope she wasn't doing a whole ot of cardio when she's as at the gym so that she doesn't end up losing her big booty, because I love it.

[Francisco d'Anconia]

...then I teased her saying I hope she wasn't doing a whole ot of cardio when she's as at the gym so that she doesn't end up losing her big booty, because I love it.

I'd start spinning plates. I don't think she's going to touch base with you too soon.

[DJDamage]

I don't think i'd call twice since I don't have the patience and i tend to just get mad at women for being stupid and say to hell with them... but i don't see the downside of a second call really.

You know sometimes its the ego talking. Frank the tank has a rule that says he won't call a girl second time but alot of it I think is ego invested by thinking: "I am adonis, if this chick doesn't call me again why should i waste time with her, she should be climbing on high mountain just to be with me!". That's fine attitude to have but then again some other guy will be getting to butter her muffin that very night because Frank didn't even bother to call and she had nothing else to do.

The reality, it doesn't matter how attractive and charming you think you are, if you don't get a good rapport with a woman, she isn't going to neccessary view you as if you are a god and therefore she doesn't owe you anything.

People say being presistence is an AFC trait but its only if you have the AFC mindest of desperation that it will be a turn off. If you call her again from a position of power and let her be known that you want to see her and through your words, you are a better catch then the other suiters she will know exectly where you stand and who you really are. As you build more rapport, her attraction with you will be higher and therefore during that time if she doesn't return your calls, then you know all hopes lost.

But I will repeat myself, early on, a woman doesn't owe you anything. I believe that little rapport early on in the seduction phase (while getting her number) results in situations like this. So intead of just asking a woman for her number, talk to her a little bit more, get her excited about you and laugh at your jokes, tighten that part of the game that needs to be tighten and you won't worry about her not returning your call.

[Frank2500]

Based on the vibe and rapport that I noticed with this woman the first time I talked to her at the gym, I noticed that I was able to make her laugh in terms of most of the things I said. While I do respect the very last poster's suggestion, I repeat again that I personally think I'm past that stage where I feel as if I should be calling any woman more than once. Some of you don't get it. This isn't about me thinking I am superior or a "god," to use some of your words. But I have had enough past experiences to lead me to firmly conclude that I wouldn't be doing things that way anymore. I just don't have the time to be chasing women down like that.

In terms of that same woman, I'm definitely not putting all my plates on her at all. I've seen it all as far as dating goes, so in case that's just her way of playing the game, it's all good. Life goes on...my feelings won't be hurt.

[joekerr31]

But I will repeat myself, early on, a woman doesn't owe you anything. I believe that little rapport early on in the seduction phase (while getting her number) results in situations like this. So intead of just asking a woman for her number, talk to her a little bit more, get her excited about you and laugh at your jokes, tighten that part of the game that needs to be tighten and you won't worry about her not returning your call.


which comes back to my hypothesis on eye contact. if you have good eye contact you've got rapport.

this is a bit out there, but i believe most of the time you can predict how a woman will behave simply based on how much eye contact you get from her.

a woman who looks you in the eyes a lot is a women with very high interest level. a woman who engages you with standard eye contact (ie. looks for a second,t hen looks away, then looks for another second, the looks away - basically the same kind of eye contact that you'd get from just about anyone) will exhibit low IL behaviors.

a bit simplistic i know, but from my experience eye contact behavior is probably one of the most tell tale signs of a womans interest level.

if im having dinner with a woman and she keeps looking in to my eyes, more so than even i may be comfortable with, it generally indicates the runway is open for a clean landing.

[DjVelvet]

Let me share a fair bit of my story that just happened last week.

The exact same thing happens to me. Got to know this chick through a friend 2 weeks ago, some rapport done. got her number and call around 5 days later, we went out for dinner and some singing, had a lot in common to talk about.

Afterwhich i called her a few days later, she didn't answer nor call me back.. At first, i have the thinking that she may not be interested so i decided to call her again a few days later. Similarly, she did not pick up the phone, so i drop a sms which says something like "Hey XXX, i will be going to xxx place to get some xmas present, a female opinion will be great, do join me =)"

She called me back 20mins later and said she's terribly sorry for missing the call as her phone is at the bedroom. She's free and we went out the next day (which's yesterday), BAM. Good rapport and date went really well.

I mean. What's wrong with the 2nd call? It doesn't make you an extreme AFC. You can't expect a girl to like you 100% from the getgo. Just try man.. its a numbers game.

Confident persistence...

[reset]

A woman who looks you in the eyes a lot is a women with very high interest level. a woman who engages you with standard eye contact (ie. looks for a second,t hen looks away, then looks for another second, the looks away - basically the same kind of eye contact that you'd get from just about anyone) will exhibit low IL behaviors.

When they really like you their eyes get all sparkly. That's hard to miss.

[Frank2500]

To the poster who did send a text message to a woman who wasn't returning his calls after he called her twice, I think there are a few exceptions, but I still believe that in general, if she is interested enough, she will call you after your first call and not remain silent for that long. I've had enough experiences in that domain.

[Frank2500]

Just to add, I too have sent text messages a couple days later to women who didn't return my calls. They still never responded. It may depend on the woman, but in most cases, if the woman is interested in getting to know you, you won't have to wait that long or not get any response at all after the first call. So I still stick to my personal philosophy-no call more than once.

[mzilla2]

The rule of 2:

2 calls, first one 2 days after meeting, do not leave a message, second no sooner than 2 days after, very brief message.

No callback within 2 days of the last call, NEXT.

Same for texting.

[Frank2500]

All right, I do respect everyone's opinions, but I still stick to my conclusion that I choose not to call anyone more than once based on my own personal experiences. However, I'd like us to take some time and do an informal poll. Simply reply to this by saying "yes" or "no" if you think a man should call a woman a second time or more than two times after waiting a few days without getting a return phone call from her. I stick to my original "no." If someone can help me tally the number of "nos" and "yes" that we get, that would be interesting, just for fun. But no matter the results, my decision remains, "no."

[wheelin&dealin]

Never call a second time.

Remember you are looking for you a girl with high interest or you are not interested.

Not returning a phone call, is a breach of respect. You are most important to you. Never compromise your integrity.

Correct for the most part. But, I've had success with throwing out a text message maybe 10 days or so after the initial call. Something like "Are you around?" She responded and we went on a date. She had a high interest level on the date too.

[STR8UP]

You know sometimes its the ego talking. Frank the tank has a rule that says he won't call a girl second time but alot of it I think is ego invested by thinking: "I am adonis, if this chick doesn't call me again why should i waste time with her, she should be climbing on high mountain just to be with me!". That's fine attitude to have but then again some other guy will be getting to butter her muffin that very night because Frank didn't even bother to call and she had nothing else to do.

Exactly.

I'm all about not giving chicks too much leeway, but in the very beginning you're gonna miss out on a lot of opportunities if you don't put your ego aside and do a simple follow up. Women across the board are just too flakey and unpredictable before their interest level is high, and it usually takes some time to get it there.

Like you alluded to.....you just might catch her at the right time when she's bored and looking for something to do, or even sulking over the guy who she liked before who finally blew her off for the last time. If your timing is good you will be her shining star.

Like at this Halloween party I went to. One of the chicks there I have always had a vibe with. That night was no exception. Every time i would turn around she would be there and we would chat for a minute till I would get distracted and move on.

Later her friend told me that she was really sad that night. i don't know the reason, probably a guy, but I could have likely swooped in for the kill.

All women have needs to be filled, and if those needs aren't filled by one or more men there will be voids that allow you to work your way into. That second call or follow up text might just set the wheels in motion if she's in the right mood.

Funny to think about, but it's true....a woman's mood one day could determine whether or not a relationship happens.

It's always wise to follow up!

[Tazman]

I think it depends on what you want. From my experience, persistance "may" get you laid, but not much else. If that's all you want, go for it.

It's not set in stone of course, but if a woman is truly interested in you, believe me, she will make it easy for you. My biggest downfall was simply not doing anything.

I think it's a myth that women require us to be ever vigilant in our efforts to get them. However, they will have you believe this when in fact all your interactions with them (the one's who were interested) were skillfully executed.

Women are as equally strategic (if not more so) in getting with the men they want, as men are in getting what they want. If she's expecting your call you better believe she isn't going to miss it, at the very least she'll be sure and run into you if she was unable to return your calls for some reason.

I think the amount of effort you put into trying to get a particular chick directly relates to the amount of interest she has in you. More effort = less interest.

Think about it, striking up a conversation, getting a phone number, then calling to set up a date and leaving a voicemail is all you should need to do. You've done your part, ball's in her court.

[DjVelvet]

I think it depends on what you want. From my experience, persistance "may" get you laid, but not much else. If that's all you want, go for it.

It's not set in stone of course, but if a woman is truly interested in you, believe me, she will make it easy for you. My biggest downfall was simply not doing anything.


Agree and disagree, from my experience from the past, i got into 3 LTRs (not just about getting laid) through persistence (Not to be mistaken with desperation). They do not have high interest in the beginning. During the dating stage, some of them flakes, some of them do not show high interest initially. Through confident persistence, they somehow or another break down their defense and we were together.

(Please do not add the comment saying that she has higher power than me after we are together. That's bullsh!t. LTR's a different ballgame.)

It's true that women make it easy for you when they like you. I'm charming, but not to the extent of celebrity lvl charming. I can't expect all girls to like me and show high interest when we just meet up. And if i am going to Next her just because she don't show high interest, I'm going to lose tons of future opportunites, definately not my style.

And trust me 101%, good quality women are worth being persistent about. Show no desperation and be a man at the same time. Its a thin line between persistence and neediness.

Please read Allen Thompson's articles. They are more realistic than some craps posted here.

[Mr. Me]

I don't leave a message unless it's a last resort. I don't think all women usually return calls when a guy first calls them anyway. I think you have to size up the situation. This just happened to me recently, let me see if your take is the same as mine.

Met a gal at a party, talked a bit, C+F, and asked for her number. She starts with "why do you want my number?" kind of stuff, so I know she's not that interested but I'm smiling and good humoredly bantering back. We volley back and forth a bit that way and then says "ask me for my number before you leave" but as I'm replying "that would be now" she's turned and gone off.

I'm at the party mingling for about another hour, not bothering with her at all. When I left, I happened to pass by her and said goodnight. She stops me and asks, "I thought you were going to ask me for my number?" and I cooly said "Well, you didn't seem interested when I did ask" and she says "I'll give you my number".

So I look at her and take out my pen and she giggles and gives me her number. When she giggled, I felt that was her saying "See? I got you!" I should've hemmed and hawed instead. And then, I should've smiled and said, "no thanks". But I took her number.

Anyway, everything she did meant to me that it wasn't very promising, but I'm going to try and see for sure, right? So almost a week later, I called her. It was a Thursday night, 9 PM. No answer, so I didn't leave a message. I tried her again Sunday night at 7, no answer, didn't leave a message. Monday night at 8:30, no answer, didn't leave a message and then Wednesday at 9:30, no answer. Hey, she's a schoolteacher and these are all school nights! You'd think she'd be around her phone one of those times. So by that point, I figured she screens her calls. She must give her number to everyone. I reasoned that she gave me her number because I wasn't chasing after her and it fed her ego or something to get me to take her number. But I didn't forget that originally she threw off my request for her number.

So on that last call, I left a brief message. This was just in case she doesn't answer calls from numbers she doesn't recognize. Just that I had called and here's my number if you'd like to return the call. No "I've been trying to reach you", no "I'd really like to see you", no "hey let's go out sometimes" no nothing but name and number, said with a bit of a grin in my voice. Now she knows it's my number and would also know it's me who tried reaching her a few times. So that message, to me, was my last resort. I'm not surprised that I haven't heard from her, and it's been a week since I left that message.

So now I put it to this community: I threw out her number. I don't see how being persistent in this case and calling again would lead to anything happening here, because I think I sized her up. Any thoughts on second calls?

[Frank2500]

I think I've heard quite a lot on this topic so far and I appreciate each of your responses. I'm quite amazed at the number of hits it has received-it quickly went from less than three hits last Saturday afternoon to almost 1,000 hits at the moment. I guess part of the reason why I feel reluctant to call more than once is because I've been played enough in most of my attempts at dating. If you guys remember the beginning of this post, I mentioned how I have even met some women in the past who have given me their numbers and indicated a semblance of high IL only to tell me later on when I try to reach them to set up a date, that " I have a boyfriend and I will not be able to meet you for lunch," like one said to me, claiming that "you are a very attractive guy, so it was hard for me to resist your offer. I hope that you can understand."


I also once met a woman at my former university's computer lab when I was in my mid-twenties. After I made my move, she gave me/wrote down not one, but two phone numbers. When I called her and we began talking over the phone briefly, she actually had some dude pick up the other line and say to me "Yo, don't call my girl no more, man."


So I've seen it all and I hope you guys can understand where I'm coming from. It's unfortunate that there are so many cold-hearted and insensitive women out there, yet at the same time they always claim that a good man is hard to find. It's a shame that good men in general have to go through so much crap and so many women who behave this way before they ever end up finding one who could perhaps finally help them begin a relationship that would be healthy and would help their hearts to heal from all this pain and all these wounds.


I've done the calling back two and three times before. It for the most part haven't made much of a difference for me and at my age and at this point in my life, I just feel as if I've past that stage of trying to chase women down. I have been through so much pain and my heart definitely needs a break after all these years, from all this madness. I just want to meet a woman who for once acts "normal."

[mzilla2]

Mr Me:

I think your initial call timing was right, however, I would have left a message on the second call and stopped calling after that: while it's possible that a chick with high IL might return your call after 4 calls, it's very unlikely. Making no more than 2 calls will help you weed out the genuine from the fakes.

And the 4 calls showing up on the call display prolly freaked her out, as she didn't have your #, and couldn't put the number to your name until after 4 calls when you finally left a message; IMO at that point most chicks would read that as a sign of desperation or creepiness. I should add that its a safe assumption that ALL women screen calls, have caller ID and secure voicemail and are experts at exploiting all telecommunications - they do not "lose" or "miss" messages. ;)

Persistentence comes to play when a chick is returning your calls, but not making plans with you: In that case, drop contact for a few weeks and call again - she might just bite!

[mzilla2]

Frank, I hear ya but thats why this site exists - women are not "normal", in as much as we like to hope they think about things in the same manner men do... I would say your one call rule *might* be limiting some possibilities for you due to womens' inherently fickle nature.

And don't look at the rejections or unreturned calls as a failure so much as rather look at you pulling the numbers as a success! :D I mean, you've got chicks with boyfriends giving you their number - you're the man IMO!

[Mr. Me]

mzilla, thanks for that.

I hear you, yet I'm thinking "needy/desperate" comes off from a guy calling the next day and then calling 3x a day, leaving messages all over the place. Me, I called a week later and then 3x spread over the course of another week, finally leaving a simple message. I guess it depends on the gal if she sees that as needy or as someone intermittently trying to reach her.

All women screen you say, and I don't argue that except to say it's not all. If women are giving their numbers out to guys that they want to see again, then there are going to be those women who likewise expect they'll be answering calls from numbers they don't recognize. There's a woman I'm dating currently that did just that when I called her some time after obtaining her number.

Concerning the woman I posted about previously, given all the indications that made me dubious about her, I was giving her a chance to show me if she was indeed a screener or not; someone having no intentions of communicating further when she hands out her number.

Had I left a message on the second call to her, I'd be going up against the popular custom of women being reluctant to return calls to men they haven't even had a date with, let alone not spoken to on the phone, and I'd be left in the dark never knowing if she was of that category, in which case another call to her may have been warranted, or continue on to see if she was a screener, in which case I'd be more confident in tossing away her number, and not leaving me to be a victim of circumstance but rather having a more accurate assessment of the situation.

[jophil28]

THis is how I see it.
A woman's initial interest level is not "on or off" like a man's .
David D puts it well - " Her IL needs to be slowly dialled up" (like turning one of those big volume controls on an old radio) , and you can only create a limited level of interest on the first night that you meet her . (I can hear STR8UP shaking his head already -)
ANy overt displays of high IL from her, that you may observe on the first night, mean little in the long haul.
Sometimes men assume that her gushing means that she wants to f**k . NOT SO ! It is usually the case that she is simply in "party mode' .That flirty gushy stuff is her flirty "party trick"...which is designed to draw you into her frame and her game.
If you do not believe that this gushy stuff is just an act, then ask yourself how many times have you boned a woman who pulled this on the same night . Low score, guys ??

A few regular posters will disagree with my next statement, but it is true from my experience.

After your initial encounter (and in the following 48 hours ) any IL that she had in you starts to subside RAPIDLY . Two days later she will be barely able to recall what you said to her and what you looked like. Additionally she is subject to the usually wacky women thinking the next day ."He is probably a - player/pedophile/ stalker/ jerk/tax avoider/ internationsl thug / drugger or smooth talking vegetarian who is too weak to cut meat. She is likely to also have you on the witness protection program, or on weekend detention for some moderately dramatic felony....


SO, three days later. when you call, all her emotions that you triggered on the first night have subsided and she is now convinced that you are a "suspect" in any one of a number of ways depending of the creativity of her anxiety driven imagination.
(WE men NEVER realize the full extent of woman's fears)

Now we have a classic dilemma. You, the pursuing male, are planning to call a woman whom you do not know, and who does not know you. In the absence of evidence about you she will have inserted her worst imaginings.
Your IL remains intact but hers has dimiinshed BECAUSE the triggers which created it were removed when you said goodnight to her a couple of nights ago.
THis explains ,perhaps, why she was all over you when you met, and then does not return your call three days later .The Volume knob has returned to close to the zero position.

What to do ? THis is what works for me - EMAIL !!

Connecting with her the next day or within two days via email with some brief but skillful C&F is magic. It dials her up again before her IL hits baseline.
It also give you TIME to plan your next strategy ..You can set the pace and the style of convo.

THis also almost eliminates the possibility that she will not pickup or blow you off when you do call her. You can discuss via email WHEN you plan to call her. She will be expecting and anticipating your call.

I get great results with this strategy.

[mzilla2]

Some good observations Jophil, I'll mull 'em over.

[guru1000]

This comes down to who you are.

I have a real cocky and arrogant demeanor. I say things like "When was the last time a good looking guy got your number within 15 seconds of talking to you??" or I'll convo for 30 seconds and then take her on the first date saying "I dont call for first dates, we go now or you'll never have a chance." or "If i dont call you within the next few hours , it just means I'm not too interested." or "I dont call women ,they call me".

I get responses like "You are so arrogant" or " You are the cockiest guy I ever met" or "I can see you are used to getting your way" or " I can see you are used to getting spoiled by women"

I dont use lines, I say what and how I feel at the moment.

So naturally with who I am, i could never call twice. Usually if i do call , it will be within the first few hours of getting the number and I'd say something like " You know why I called you within the first few hours? Because I can."

Calling twice contradicts me and my style. Everyone's demeanor and game is different. You have to do what works for you.