At the risk of coming off as "feminine" or even getting flamed for whatever reason, I'm gonna lay this out on the line.

I have come to the conclusion that one thing that is dragging me down at this point in my life is a lack of intimacy. I know, that sounds GAY. But after a bit of soul searching I have reached the conclusion that intimacy is something that I very much desire. Possibly as a bandage to cover other issues, but that is what I crave nonetheless.

Some of you may know that I have been going through some tough times. Over the past couple of years I have had to deal with a breakup with that taught me some very valuable lessons about women. Including some stuff that I almost wish I hadn't discovered.

Add to that the serious issues I have had with my business life, friends (more than one) betraying my nearly unconditional trust, and the fact that this has all culminated in me having to basically work 7 days a week, it has all taken its toll.

I posted a few weeks ago about how I finally felt as though I have been liberated, that I don't NEED to spin plates. That I was "living the plate mentality". I honestly thought that I was at a point where I could stand on my own two feet in regards to "taking or leaving" women.

Actually I still DO believe that I can take or leave any one particular woman, even the latest one I was interested in, but when she flaked last weekend I was completely DEFLATED.

So I had to stand back and ask myself WHY this happened. After all, I still feel as though there isn't a woman out there who could suck me into her vortex. It's not about the individual woman, it's about what any given women can provide for me.

Looking back to last year, the same thing happened back then, when I was dating the chick who ended up getting married earlier this year. We had a casual relationship. No talk of commitment whatsoever. She was free to do whatever with whomever. But I remember sending her a text one night when she was out of town, and when it didn't get returned I knew something was up. My trusty spidey sense told me that things weren't status quo.

This was right about the time when all of the sh!t started hitting the fan, when I discovered my best friend was robbing me blind, when I had to start working insane hours.

All of this was happening at once. I knew the chick was gone. I just let it go, but then a couple of months later she sends me an email saying she was now in a relationship with this other guy, how she still wants to be friends, blah, blah. I remember that I already knew it was long since over, but I immediately got this overwhelming feeling that I was all alone in a world that seemed to be plotting against me, and everything hit me like a ton of bricks.

After that I began suffering from withdrawal. It wasn't withdrawal from this chick, but from not having SOMEONE to take the edge off of the chaos. I knew I would never marry her or even have a serious relationship. Hell, she was on strike two for bad behavior. But I felt as if I lost something that was really helping me to keep myself together. I now know that "something" was intimacy.

After that there were random encounters with random women.

One of them really caught my eye at first sight, but it wasn't long before I realized that she was bad news. Oh well, good for a fukk I thought, so I pursued it.

The few times we did have sex I felt like I was just a sex toy. The big purple dildo that was sitting on her bathroom counter in plain view the first time I was at her place might have been an omen!

That was all good and fine, I like busting a nut just as much as the next guy, but I was beginning to realize that sex without intimacy wasn't really doing much for me. Needless to say, my interaction with her was unfulfilling.

Which brings us back to the present.

Over the past few weekends I once again got a little taste of that which I felt I was lacking. Intimacy.

Just having SOMEONE sleeping next to me at night (who seemed to be into me) gave me a boost. It was just having someone with the "potential" to give a sh!t about me and my life that picked me up.

I know it's all an illusion. "Love" and all that crap as most people know it does not exist. But at the same time I know that I am human. I am a social animal that craves interaction just like the next person. I'm an introvert by nature, but that does not preclude me from the basic wants and needs that everyone shares.

So here I was. I had built up expectations. I was busting my ass all week with the idea that there was an escape waiting for me on the weekend. And when I realized that wasn't going to happen, it took the wind out of my sails.

I can't stress enough- it is NOT the fact that I am hung up on any certain woman, or than my interest level is too high, or anything of that nature. And despite my needs and desires I am fully able to control how I act and react around these women. I still make mistakes, but not like 90% of guys do.

And as I alluded to earlier, this isn't about sex. I'm sure I could have a lot more of that than I do, and it's great and all, but the idea of fukking for the sake of fukking doesn't do much for me at this particular point in my life.

I don't necessarily want a girlfriend (although that might solve the immediate issue) and I DEFINITELY don't want a wife, but I have to wonder if actively seeking a relationship is the only way to fill this void.

So there it is. I'm very interested what my fellow MM board members have to say about this. I don't have a specific question about it, as I believe I recognize what it is, but I am curious to hear what your thoughts are.

Fire away.

I just mentioned this book minutes ago in another thread. It may interest you http://ebooks.palm.com/product/deta..._The_Art_of_Loving_and_the_Joy_of_Being_Loved

Oh, and it is written by a man

Str8,
You say you don't want a girlfriend, but yet, you do want intimacy?


What do you mean?

I keep feeling that you don't "love" yourself enough.
Perhaps you are looking for support, and nurturing from the outside, and are currenlty inable to provide sufficient amounts of those inside yourself.

If you look at some basic psychology schemas, you'll see diagrams that show an Adult id, and a Child Id.

The adult part takes care of the child.
The child part needs the adult to take care of it.

Right now, it seems your adult is not taking care of your child.

Meaning, the needs you have, which all healthy people have, are not being met internally first. So perhaps you look for them externally, causing anxiety and depression.

How do you take care of your own emotional needs?

How do you mentor yourself?
How do you encourage and support yourself?

Are you overly critical and judgemental of yourself?

Remember being alone isn't IDEAL, but being "lonely" NEEDS to be addressed.

LovelyLady said:

I just mentioned this book minutes ago in another thread. It may interest you http://ebooks.palm.com/product/deta..._The_Art_of_Loving_and_the_Joy_of_Being_Loved

Click to expand...

Damn, woman!
I'm going to have to call you "Fire Lady"!
You're on fire tonight!

What are you wearing????
You are absolutely intoxicating!
(pulls out a bottle of wine , two glasses, and has an intense look on his face as he walks purposefully towards her)

STR8UP -

It seems to me you're trying to get a discussion going about intimacy and that's cool. However, this may seem a bit off topic but have you ever considered the possibility that you may be Codependent?

Think about what you just said. You want someone sleeping next to you. You want that feeling of closeness. It's not that you are stuck on any particular girl and in fact, you have taken advantage of the intimacy provided to you by a woman who was in your eyes 'low quality' because you crave that intimacy so much.

Am I on the right track with this one?

Interceptor said:

Damn, woman!
I'm going to have to call you "Fire Lady"!
You're on fire tonight!

What are you wearing????
You are absolutely intoxicating!
(pulls out a bottle of wine , two glasses, and has an intense look on his face as he walks purposefully towards her)

Click to expand...

I am just particulary centered with both my "babies" home tonight. Life is good...

You are such a Charmer! :flowers:

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STR*UP--------


As I read your post, I was reminded of a dream, or, rather TWO dreams, I had the other night. I was with, successively, a couple of girls. One was a girlfriend from 20 years ago, the other was my exWife. Both were tender, sweet, and, to use your word, "intimate" in the dreams. There was lovely sweetness and lush kissing with both. It was sweet and lovely. I don't remember if real "sex" was involved with either, but that doesn't matter.

The whole next day, I was a little "off." I really sorta "missed" both these women. The one from way back when wasn't even suitable physically, emotionally, or "behaviorally" for me now. And god knows, my ex is NEVER to be considered good for me ever again, for reasons I won't address now.


But the dreams were so vivid, so nice, so sweet, so "erotic," that I just sorta fell into the whole "feeling" of it all.



I feel "gay" and a little wussie about it all, just like you described above.



But so what?

We are men, not robots, and even though we are expected, and expect ourselves, to be men of strength and honor, we DO have temptations and potential failings. And sometimes, we might be tempted by the tenderness that women can present to us. (Frequently duplicitous though this may be.)




So, STR*UP, man, don't get DOWN on yourself..... trudge on.

I will, too.

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here is the problem...

life is a hard thing. its hard on everyone, some more than others.

we were raised to believe it was meant to be like a 60 minute sitcom, where everything is perfect, then theres a problem, then theres a bit of drama, then its all resolve and things are perfect.

but when we grow up we realize that life isn't a sitcom. that no one cares about you really. that if you were a bum on the street people would spit on you and stare at you in disgust.

this is NOT a kind world. and what kindness there is out there is given by kind people, and thank god there are some of them. but otherwise its a self-centered, manipulative, broken world we all live in.

intimacy though is like a log cabin with a toasty fire going which is a refuge from the snow storm outside. the harsh conditions outside go away as you drink your hot coco in front of the fire. you can feel safe again like a baby sucking on its mothers tit.

this is why you desire intimacy. this is why all men desire intimacy. this is actually the most valuable aspect to being married. this is also at the very core of 99% of most AFCs.

but as always, you have to be careful who you allow yourself to be intimate with. theres nothing worse than sitting by the fire drinking coco only to find out someone poisoned the coco! last thing you want is to develop intimacy with a woman who uses it to rip your heart out.

but anyway, im going to make a left turn up here and probably lose a bunch of folks, but hopefully a few stay with me.

intimacy with a woman is an illusion. because no matter how 'safe' you may feel with her, you are never as safe as you feel (at least with 99.9% of women). and the reason is that women don't approach intimacy the way men do. for a man intimacy is a refuge from the male world of combat, of survival of the fittest, of reality!

but you see, a woman doesn't look for refuge from the world. she is not like a man, she is not climbing the mountain of ambition as men do. women are usually just going with the flow. as such they are not so much seeking refuge from anything, they aren't fighting any battles, they aren't striving to become more, etc. for them, intimacy is more about the satisfaction of the kill. when they know that you now turn to their warm bussom to take refuge from the world, then they feel intamcy - your dependence on them makes them feel are warm and fuzzy inside (almost as though you were their child).

but this state of intimacy is an illusion. you can acheive the same 'feelings' through meditation if you wanted. remember fight club "now i want you to find your power animal... slide." - that sense of refuge / escape from the harsh world outside your door is the exact same feeling as meditation.

now, i probably lost a bunch of folks already, but im going to take one more left turn and probably lose whose left

if you REALLY want to live your life with an hour, daily, and weekly sense of intimacy, the ONLY thing which i have found to provide that is a belief in God. I dont care if its allah, buddha, JC, or some un-labelled universal force - the belief that you were meant to be here, that what is happening to you was meant to happen, and that your life will unfold exactly as it was destined to unfold will provide that feeling of intimacy you talk of.

it is only though this theological life philosophy (ie. belief in God) that one can simulateously express the most powerful and positive of inner emotions while interacting with a harsh, manipulative, cold world.

now, if i thought it could be done via psychology, drugs, anthropology, politics, mass media, etc. i would say so. but from everything i have studied and observed, the one constant among those who live life feeling 'safe, loved and optimistic' - in essence a feeling of intimacy - have been those with a deep sense of spiritual belief.

it doesnt mean they go to church. it doesnt mean they dont curse or drink or whatever. what it means though is that they feel connected to their creator and feel as though they are always being cared for by such creator.

anyway, im going to stop there cuz i know religion is a no no. but when you bring up something like intimacy, in my opinion, the kind of intimacy you are seeking doesn't exist in the human world. its form in the human-only world is illusory. its only in those who believe in a higher power who seem to experience that state of intimacy on a regulary and on going basis.

First off, I believe we ALL have our own psychological "issues" that we deal with, so I take no offense to any diagnosis given

When I say that I don't want a girlfriend but I want intimacy it might sound redundant, but let me clarify.

It isn't that I'm not open to the idea of having a g/f, it's that there are a few issues that give me pause. Such as losing my freedom. I know it's great in the beginning, but it inevitably gets old. I have yet to meet a woman who would be able to captivate me for any period of time. And I've learned my lesson when it comes to tying a woman down when there is no future.

Another thing that gives me hesitation is the very thing that I believe to be the root of the problem- my chaotic life.

When the 21 yr old stayed with me a couple of months ago i had this discussion with her. I told her that it wouldn't be fair for me to drag someone else into the mess I'm in. She might be a little partial, but she kept saying that the right girl wouldn't mind. I don't believe in this. If a chick gets emotionally attached....sure she will be able to look past it all. In the beginning anyway. But what woman wants to be with a man who has no time for her? It would be tough to work out.

Probably the biggest thing is the fact that all things come with a price. Having a serious relationship entails having to deal with the down side of having an emotional attachment with the opposite sex. Women are sometimes tough to deal with!

And I'm not lonely. I'm just longing for intimacy. Loneliness to me is not having anyone. I have a great family, some good friends, some fun acquaintances, and lots of cool business associates that keep me occupied. I hit a social slump for awhile, but I'm pretty happy with where it's at now.

From Dictionary.com
co·de·pend·ent
–adjective 1. of or pertaining to a relationship in which one person is physically or psychologically addicted, as to alcohol or gambling, and the other person is psychologically dependent on the first in an unhealthy way.

Click to expand...

No, I do not believe this definition fits me.

The only chick I've ever been with who has had issues such as this was the one who I said I felt like a sex toy with. She was just out of rehab for a cocaine addiction and not making very good progress But I spotted it right away and like I said, i knew going into it that she wouldn't be good for anything but sex. Probably a good thing she moved away though.....I don't really need that kind of element around in any capacity.

Actually, the chick i dated last year I mentioned DID have a bit of a drinking problem, but I wasn't wrapped up in HER. I just enjoyed having someone around, and she is really a good person.

Any of the other women....no issues of this sort.

My take- the betrayal of my close friends had a deeper impact on me than I initially realized. In a way I feel the need to TRY to trust someone again, even if I'm screwed over in the end.

Another thing is the overwhelming level of stress. I know, it's all what you make of it, but it's real nonetheless. Now that I am restricted of my freedom to travel and I am not even able to take a little weekend trip or even plan an activity LOCALLY because I work every day, it makes the idea of having someone around that much more appealing.

My life did a 180 in the last year and a half. I won't even begin to go into it, but lets just say that I hope this is the worst time of my life. And when you feel that you are at an all time low, any form of close contact helps.

swifTy said:

why the belief in something bigger? why not just belief in yourself? its just as good..no??

you got some good lines there. your probably right about how men and women view intimacy differently. guys DO just want to escape. your soo right. they want to just escape from it all. the hard day. the world. so yes, afc's, you can understand why they would relish in it. and the hard man, the tough man, just does what he has to do. less dependent on it.

Click to expand...

well, every person that i've come across in life where i've though 'wow. holy sh*t that guy really has his life under control. he's really happy with who he is and the life he is leading." - every single one of those guys believed in something higher than themselves.

all the great philosophers who spoke on 'the good life' and things like virtue all had an unwavering (and analytical) belief in a creator.

an argument can easily be made that what im saying is bullsh*t. and there isn't much i can do to disprove that (it would take me 30 pages to do so). all i can say is that believing in a loving creator (even though this world is not loving) seems to be a key part of the forumla in becoming a complete, happy person - and in some strange way, while the world doesnt' change, your experience in it does.

suddenly all the negative crap falls away into the background and all the positive stuff moves into the foreground. you start seeing the good in people and things as opposed to the bad.

anyway, just my view on life

Absolutely fukking BRILLIANT Joe.

That describes my situation to a "T".

Right now I am in the biggest fight of my life. Intimacy is a refuge. A temporary refuge, but a refuge nonetheless. A little goes a long way, and it allows me just enough time to "recover" and lick my wounds before I go back out to battle.

I will never do the religion thing, although I can see how people are attracted to that and how it might "soothe" in the same way that tenderness from another human being does.

So when are you gonna write a book already? Better get an editor that believes in CAPS tho, hehe

STR8UP said:

My life did a 180 in the last year and a half. I won't even begin to go into it, but lets just say that I hope this is the worst time of my life. And when you feel that you are at an all time low, any form of close contact helps.

Click to expand...

the worst time to develop a close relationship with a woman is when you are feeling needy.

but anyway, i dont think your life is in that bad of shape str8up. i think with you the issue has always been the same thing - you aren't looking for a committed relationship.

i dont know if you use to be an AFC who turned DJ or what, but i think you've gotta do good at gaming chics that you've lost the part where you transition the game into a meaningful relationship.

i mean, you got women coming back to your place and sleeping in yoru bed half the time, surely one of these might fit the bill for an LTR?

and you say you have no time for a woman, but you have time to go out and socialize!

prioritize my man. I believe if you make the decision that you want an LTR, you will find it.

the last time you posted a bunch of pics of yoruself - and you know what i saw in those pics - i saw a guy living it up and and having fun. i saw a guy partying. what i didn't see in any of those pics was a guy who was through with the partying and who was looking to settle down.

and trust me, you can tell who those guys are, even if they are in a club when their picture was taken.

the party scene is easy, a real relationship puts way more on the line.

but im hoping you make that transition str8. because you're the type of guy that could have a great LTR, but you gotta believe in people a bit mroe than you do right now and you gotta be open to an LTR (more than open, you gotta want it).

STR8UP said:

I will never do the religion thing, although I can see how people are attracted to that and how it might "soothe" in the same way that tenderness from another human being does.

Click to expand...

haha. just so that everyone knows, no one was a bigger atheist than myself. moreover, i always felt that IF there was a god, then i would hate him worse than i would hate hitler, bin ladan and stalin combined.

so if i can come around to a more spiritual way of living life, anyone can.

anyway, we all want to feel loved. most people would consider life to have been worth living if we were genuinely loved if even for only a moment.

the huge secret that has been kept from the world - and if anything it is the greatest trick the devil ever pulled - is that the ability to feel loved is within you.

people don't believe it. people do not believe that you can feel just as loved by yourself as you would with some woman sleeping in your bed telling you how great you are. (hint: with the woman its not even love, its ego stroking).

anyway, if people knew what was inside of them and how to get it out, the world would be utopia within 5 years.

Duplicitous- had to look that one up, but you're right on!

Kind of goes with my theory that "love" as most people know it is nothing but a bunch of smoke and mirrors. Intimacy is a component of "love", therefore it would make sense that intimacy given by a woman is duplicitous. <--Great word!

It seems that we share a lot of the same philosophies on women and life, Alias.

And the funny thing is, I've never been married! I could only imagine what a divorce would do to me!

I suppose it's the fact that I spent most of my life as a serial boyfriend. you learn a lot about women when you live with a few of them!

Actually I'm kind of proud of myself in a way. I'm past the two year mark for not being involved in a serious relationship. That's a new record for me. And the funny thing is, in that period of time i have dated more frequently, and had more sex and sexual experiences than any other two years in my life.

Maybe that has something to do with it. I'm beyond my normal timeline for getting involved in a committed relationship.

swifTy said:

and how about you joekerr.....r u in a relationship? a girlfriend? multiple girls?
whats your take? what you lookin for? what does the joekker want?

Click to expand...

i date at this point. i messed up in my past and let about 4 really great women pass me by - very similar life scenario as str8ups, let other life events take priority.

so right now im just test driving one car after another until i find another great one, then ill consider buying it.

who knows if ill get lucky though and come across another great one in time.

got my fingers crossed though

ST8UP

The definition of Codependent you gave is a bit outdated. No longer is the idea of Codependency limited to having a partner who is chemically dependent. In fact, Codependency has become such a broad all purpose term that it is hard to nail down.

Codependency in the sense that I was using it refers to a person who is addicted to relationships. I'm not talking about relationships in the sense of commitment to any one person but rather needing constant companionship or intimacy.

Take me for example. In the past I've been a clingy, codependent person. I had no sense of self unless I was seeing someone. In other words, without a woman to fill this big void within me, I felt life was incomplete. Now I've been through some counseling on that issue and I won't get into it here. But what I want you to do is google the book "Codependent no more" by Melodie Beatty. The spelling might be off on her name. Anyway, that book is hands down the most acclaimed book on the subject and I want you to just read a description of the book and maybe a few reviews of it and tell me that I'm wrong and that it doesn't apply to you.

joekerr31 said:

when they know that you now turn to their warm bussom to take refuge from the world, then they feel intamcy - your dependence on them makes them feel are warm and fuzzy inside (almost as though you were their child).

Click to expand...

What??? Joekerr, seriously man, are you ok tonight? No woman wants a guy that depends on them so they can take refuge from the world. That's what we preach against here.

joekerr31 said:

if you REALLY want to live your life with an hour, daily, and weekly sense of intimacy, the ONLY thing which i have found to provide that is a belief in God. I dont care if its allah, buddha, JC, or some un-labelled universal force - the belief that you were meant to be here, that what is happening to you was meant to happen, and that your life will unfold exactly as it was destined to unfold will provide that feeling of intimacy you talk of.

it is only though this theological life philosophy (ie. belief in God) that one can simulateously express the most powerful and positive of inner emotions while interacting with a harsh, manipulative, cold world.

now, if i thought it could be done via psychology, drugs, anthropology, politics, mass media, etc. i would say so. but from everything i have studied and observed, the one constant among those who live life feeling 'safe, loved and optimistic' - in essence a feeling of intimacy - have been those with a deep sense of spiritual belief.

it doesnt mean they go to church. it doesnt mean they dont curse or drink or whatever. what it means though is that they feel connected to their creator and feel as though they are always being cared for by such creator.

Click to expand...

Don't mean to get into a discussion about this, we can actually talk more about this in a PM Joekerr if you wish, as the topic of god and the spiritual is an interest of mine. But to your passage, I'd like to say: been there, done that. I tried the god thing for a long time, but it never did sh*t. god(not even worthy of capitalization of the "G") has been nothing but a let down my friend. Not just to me, but also to many in the world around me. I've gained zero respect for god. Everything I once ever believed in about life and god, has crumbled right in front of my own two eyes. Women really opened up my eyes to this. If you really believe god gives a f*ck about people and suffering, then you are living a serious biblical/dogmatic illusion.

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"Codependent" is an an amorphous, grab-bag, B.S. label that means NOTHING.

It DID start out as a description of a substance abuser's "enabler."

Now it means ANYTHING.

Pay NO attention to the "Codependent" crap. It's a bunch of bullsh*t, unless your wife is an alcoholic or a drug addict.

Really..


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Joeker wrote:

"it is only though this theological life philosophy (ie. belief in God) that one can simulateously express the most powerful and positive of inner emotions while interacting with a harsh, manipulative, cold world." [emphasis MINE.]


"ONLY," joeker??????

I guess this conversation's over, man.

Too bad. i usually like most of your stuff.

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edger said:

I've gained zero respect for god. Everything I once ever believed in about life and god, has crumbled right in front of my own two eyes. If you really believe god gives a f*ck about people and suffering, then you are living a serious illusion.

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the two sides will never come together. when i die one day long in the future, the world will still be divided among believers and non believers.

but the best short explanation of believing in god in the world we live in is best articulated by gandhi (check it out if you'd like, its only 1 minute and probably his most famous words)...

http://youtube.com/watch?v=rvOQHZAL3ug