REAL tough one, expert DJ opinions needed

[grinder]

I hear 'ya, but isn't that type of game played by a couple who's on the same team (no, not that way :rolleyes:). Where there's camaraderie, common goals; one feeds the other for the assist and a goal is made; the team wins.

It's like Sampson and Delilah. Heaven forbid she finds out about his Achilles heel. But is that the real issue? Perhaps revealing fatal flaws is what men believe as being emotionally intimate; that revealing raw nerves is what women are longing for from a man.

I've had two failed marriages and when we focused on the kids and the house, yes, we were on the same team. Other than these specific goals we were not on the same team. Never.

You mean DJ's have flaws? The whole disclosure issue is somewhat clouded. You never have to tell anybody a damn thing if you don't want to. I think the media (Okraaa) has infected this issue as her view of disclosure is emotionally vomiting up every childhood trauma to your betrothed. Finally, science is proving this does not do a damn thing for either of you and we know damn well it just kills the attraction in the relationship.

[Bonhomme]

From your last post, Dash, it looks to me like her "lizard brain" is 110% into you, but her analytical side (the part of the brain that rejects guys online for mixing up "your" and "you're" or being 1 year off their age range) has doubts: mainly not sure you're committed to her or take the relationship seriously enough, smart money says.

For all we know, she could be posting on Oprah-type chick forums getting all sort of advice that "this guy can't commit," "he's probably seeing 3 other women," blah, blah, blah...

What do your instincts tell you?

From what I'm reading, mine tell me your overgaming this one. Been there, done that. Too many times.

***********

Don't take this as advice to go all "textbook AFC." In fact, I don't think you could do that unless you were acting. What I'm writing about is just letting your natural "game" (if you even want to call it that) take over, without trying too hard to be "DJ".

[Rollo Tomassi]

Out of curiosity, how many guys out there play this type of game in committed relationships? Actually, do you guys normally play these power trip like games in relationships? I know that complacency kills relationships but shouldn't there be some level of comfort?

I understand what you're saying, but how much of what you think is a 'power game' should be basic pragmatism for a man? I think a primary failing that AFCs internalize and have been conditioned from childhood to believe for the past 40 years is that they need to be "more in tune with their feelings", "more in touch with their feminine side" and "more sensitive to her needs." All this has resulted in is confusion and frustration on an AFC's part because he does what he's been taught to believe is expected of him to get what he's really after - sex and intimacy - only to find that the more he identifies with the feminine the more she rejects him in favor of more masculine men who are polar opposites not only of what she says she wants, but what he's spent a better part of his life time to evolve his personality into. SoSuave is a direct result of this dynamic. The SS community exists because enough AFCs are finding that despite their best efforts over the course of their lives, the equation that states 'men ought to be more like, identify with, and model their personalities on, what women's emotionality dictates' simply doesn't add up to what their behaviors bear out.

I'm not saying a certain amount of "opening up" to a woman isn't necessary for a good communicative relationship, but I think that given the history I've described for the past 40 years, men's first impulse now is to over-emotionalize themselves to women on a moments notice in an effort to secure her intimacy. The reason women respond so well to guys who are "emotionally unavailable" is because they're so rare now. Women want to figure guys out. They want to read his book chapter by chapter, not read the synopsis on the back cover or have the cliff notes of it crammed down her throat on the first date. Unfortunately this is the default for most guys today.

Information, emotional availability, personal history, and all of the things that women seem to prize in their emotional, communicative psyches needs to be meted out by men as a reward for a woman when she displays the behaviors that men value (i.e. usually sex and intimacy). Just like being sparing with gifts, a man should only disclose himself occasionally as a reinforcer and just enough to keep her even more intrigued than she was before. My wife of course knows every intimate detail about me, but if my wife is exceptional in bed on a particular night I occasionally buy her flowers the next day, this is a covert reward. I do not, however, buy her flowers as a gesture to get her to be exceptional in bed, this is would be a bribe.

BTW, I'm thankful you weren't on that bridge when it collapsed FRANCISCO.

[Francisco d'Anconia]

That would be the IDEAL situation, but my guess is that very few supposedly committed couples have that ideal situation.
You make it sound as its a situation of happenstance, that's it's just dumb luck. It's like if they wake up one morning and out of the blue they have a baby; "How in the heck did that happen???!!!":eek:

I suppose that's why the divorce rate is so high. A personal anecdote: I have been in 13 weddings, and out of those, only 2 couples are still married. The commonality amongst all the failed ones? That's right, no commonality of goals, or worse yet, no goals period.....
I've always said that people put more effort in planning a wedding than planning the marriage. People put more effort and research into buying a new car than finding an appropriate mate and creating a viable, sustainable relationship.

[Francisco d'Anconia]

I've had two failed marriages and when we focused on the kids and the house, yes, we were on the same team. Other than these specific goals we were not on the same team. Never.
Isn't it sad when you're on the same team for all of the things except the relationship itself...

You mean DJ's have flaws? The whole disclosure issue is somewhat clouded. You never have to tell anybody a damn thing if you don't want to. I think the media (Okraaa) has infected this issue as her view of disclosure is emotionally vomiting up every childhood trauma to your betrothed. Finally, science is proving this does not do a damn thing for either of you and we know damn well it just kills the attraction in the relationship.
That's what I'm saying, many guys feel that whatever they disclose would be a flaw. It makes me wonder what kind of life they had lived to feel that any personal information would be a slight to their character and would subsequently be held against them. Strange....

[Vulpine]

Please allow me to relate my personal experience.

Out of curiosity, how many guys out there play this type of game in committed relationships? Actually, do you guys normally play these power trip like games in relationships? I know that complacency kills relationships but shouldn't there be some level of comfort?

About that article, I had to take a moment to reflect. I had read it quite a while ago, and it's refreshing to revisit some of those articles to see how you are measuring up DJ-wise presently.

I wanted to say...

An authentic, legitimate game is not played: It is lived, it is natural and it is what you are at your core. You don't have to TRY to do anything, you just do it. All else is a contrivance and disingenuous. Plus, my attention span is to short to remember all that sh*t.

I think people miss the forest (enjoying life as a fully cognizant man) for the trees (all the little dj steps and recommendations that are MEANT to help guide you to that fully realized natural awareness) when they focus too intently on the minutia of Djism.

...but grinder beat me to it. :up:

I'd like to add, though, that this "limiting or dosing personal information" "game" should indeed be unforced. I've found that, at least for myself, this happened somewhat "accidentally". And, I believe I have narrowed it down the distinct cause of how it does actually happen naturally.

They want to read his book chapter by chapter, not read the synopsis on the back cover or have the cliff notes of it crammed down her throat on the first date. Unfortunately this is the default for most guys today.

See, I was exactly like this: "There's something you should know. Here's my life story - do you like me in spite of it?"

Just like the article claims, I had very bad luck with dates. Day's 2 and 3 would rarely come. I was confused and frustrated. Now, after reading the article, and after reading a few other articles and threads, I came to an overall conclusion:

"Shut up! You are fine, and your past is fine, so quit trying to qualify yourself!"

Do you see what that conclusion is getting to or based on?

Confidence.

Through natural DJ evolution, one can't help but to be more confident: sure of themselves as a man, what they want, and where they've been. Once you have this confidence, it only follows that you don't just run up to a stranger and start spewing your life story: it's none of a stranger's business!

So naturally, as your comfort level increases with a woman, you offer up more information. Like mirroring, you trust the other person enough to share little bits of your past.

So, in regards to Dash, he might be too strict with the "aloofness". He may be forcing the "Shut up! You are fine, and your past is fine, so quit trying to qualify yourself!"

If you take that literally, it means shut up, period. Initially, I thought the same: shut up! So, I did. But, later I was confident enough in the womans' interest levels and in myself that I started offering little tidbits of my "human" past and idiosyncracies.

I was at a point where I could say "hey, here's a boogeyman of mine" and be completely confident that I was golden regardless of the woman. I could also admit much more, but just not all at once. I would mix sweet and sour, mainly because I didn't personally care to dwell on negativity. I figure a "DJ" really shouldn't be focused on the past anyway, they should be looking toward the future or at the present. "Nevermind where I've been, where am I going?"

SOoooººº, the "opening up" and sharing personal information was a natural by-product of a healthy self-esteem and confidence. And, what grinder says rings true: you don't have to focus on it or dwell on it as a "tactic".

When your inner game (attitude, self-esteem, goals and motivation, confidence, priorities, etc.) is tight, a lot, and I mean a lot, of DJ "tactics" are second nature quite by accident. The little DJ tips, tricks, and hints should drop into place around your persona, not form your persona.

Or, at least that's been my experience.


I think people miss the forest through the trees when they focus too intently on the minutia of Djism.

Indeed. My attention is on the woman, not on the "playbook" or myself. A good receiver is constantly looking upfield and deviates from the route as necessary once he has the ball. If he doesn't, he'll be forced out-of-bounds or tackled - not score. It's the difference between knowing the game, and playing it. It's the difference between watching yourself get tackled and watching the goal.

[CF9]

You make it sound as its a situation of happenstance, that's it's just dumb luck. It's like if they wake up one morning and out of the blue they have a baby; "How in the heck did that happen???!!!":eek:

I've always said that people put more effort in planning a wedding than planning the marriage. People put more effort and research into buying a new car than finding an appropriate mate and creating a viable, sustainable relationship.

Nope, I wasn't trying to imply it's purely by accident. In fact, my belief is that "successful" marriages are upfront; discussions are had, each partner qualifies each other. It is in the "bad' marriages where no determination of commonality is made--that's why they end up becoming bad marriages!!

Too dam many people get married w/out a clue. All I was suggesting is that what you put into something is what you get...usually. Sure, some couples will simply "luck out" & stumble into something real. Personally, I wouldn't rely on luck. Others, on the other hand, seem to be just fine w/ rolling the dice...

[Dash Riprock]

I think the media (Okraaa) has infected this issue as her view of disclosure is emotionally vomiting up every childhood trauma to your betrothed. Finally, science is proving this does not do a damn thing for either of you and we know damn well it just kills the attraction in the relationship.

This is what my instinct is telling me: I have a feeling her ex did this and so have other guys she's dated. I come along, aloof, not disclosing much but, using lots of humor, c&f, and planning major action dates and she's like, W-T-F?! Who the HELL is this guy??

I think solid DJ skills over time do become natural but as in anything else, need a brush up once in a while. I mean look at any MLB player--some great hitters go into slumps (A-Rod, B.Bonds) but then work their out by making adjustments. Same with a good DJ; refresh, make adjustments, advance.

The Girl commented to me the other night, "Sometimes, I feel we're getting real close, then BAM you shut down again." I'm thinking, yeah, better than spilling my guts like most guys do...keep guessing girlie-girl...

I think it's always better to err on the mysterious side of things rather than telling too much – I, nor can I remember any guy, ever getting dumped because he was too mysterious early on. Keep in mind I treat this girl WELL when we are together; lot's of FUN, affection w/o overdoing, ask her plenty of ?'s about her life, her events, thoughts, etc. I bust on her a lot too playfully—I KNOW no guy has had the balls to do this because she’s hot, but she takes it well and fires back pretty good too.

I *think* when women say they don't "connect" with a guy it's usually a combination of:
1-the guy dumped his guts, so there's nothing for her to "figure out" (just look at the books they read; romance novels--does Prince Charming spill out his guts to her--NO! He's off slaying dragons, defending her honor, then he comes back, doesn't say a word and F's her, THE END)
2-lack of masculinity (he's soooo nice, but could he "protect" me & would I want him as the head of my household, father of my kids??, he can’t even hit a 80 mph fastball in a batting cage or bench his weight, wussy!!)
3-lack of sex appeal (#1 + #2 = #3)

I find I have to come back here and reference the material and keep it fresh in my mind because there is a lot here and I need to keep from backsliding into AFC thinking.

ALL smart DJ's do this--great job.

The reason women respond so well to guys who are "emotionally unavailable" is because they're so rare now. Women want to figure guys out. They want to read his book chapter by chapter, not read the synopsis on the back cover or have the cliff notes of it crammed down her throat on the first date. Unfortunately this is the default for most guys today.

Well put--it's REALLY hard not to take this bait sometimes. After a “session” Hot Chick looks at me with those BIG brown eyes, she’s laying there in the raw, and I know what she wants--more of "my story." I also know where that'll get me, a one-way ticket to AFCville. No thanks, I moved away a LONG time ago.

Doc Love PREACHES that within the first 60 days, make her DREDGE the info out of you--I tend to agree with this. Once again, has anyone here ever heard of a guy getting dumped for being too intriguing, complex, challenging, or mysterious—at least for the first few months? In time, throw her a morsel, otherwise SHUT THE F UP.

[Vulpine]

Doc Love PREACHES that within the first 60 days, make her DREDGE the info out of you--I tend to agree with this. Once again, has anyone here ever heard of a guy getting dumped for being too intriguing, complex, challenging, or mysterious—at least for the first few months? In time, throw her a morsel, otherwise SHUT THE F UP.

No, I haven't heard of a guy getting dumped for that. But I have heard of a chick not upping the pooter for it.
:whistle:

Wow. You are one serious DJ machine: it's been 6 weeks, that's 42 days (44 now since the original post). You are definitely "by the books" if you can recite some "60 day" rule like that.

Be a man, not a robot.

Relationships aren't boxing matches where you defend yourself, throw a jab, watch for a reaction, throw another jab, watch for a weak spot, toss in an uppercut, bob, weave, block, jab, step, jab, hook, block, bob, weave, duck, step, cross, hook, defend... Too intense! Someone's going to get hurt! Or tired!

(I can't help but to imagine Rock'em, Sock'em Robots! :D)

Instead, relationships are like dancing: sometimes you push, sometimes you pull, sometimes you step on her toes when she resists your pushing and pulling or gets out of step. Easy. Effortless. If you know the steps, all that's left is to listen to the music and feel her next to you.

Dude, you know the steps.

Women can sense when you are faking or forcing things and will reflect that in their actions. I can't fault her for intentionally holding back if you are. You seem overly obsessed with "not spilling your guts".

But, I wasn't there, and I don't know you, so I'm only making assumptions here.

[Dash Riprock]

Doc Love PREACHES that within the first 60 days, make her DREDGE the info out of you--I tend to agree with this.

I'm not by the books, it's just a general rule of thumb. You have to learn DJ skills somewhere, right? Just citing my sources. It's not forced either as with practice it does flow. There’s no way any chick would hang with a dude if he seemed “forced”, yet alone for 6 weeks. You need your body language to match your words and actions; I’ve worked hard at it and have it down well as results show. Vulpine, maybe you’re a 3% natural—I’m not. Tony Robbins sucked as speaker at first, but look at him now. A guy like MLK was a *rare* natural speaker.

After 4-5 years of practice it's actually quite natural; fun, playful banter, affection, keep your yap shut, ask her ?'s, a couple days silence, keep advancing...

Just getting a different reaction from this one--who isn't such a loser after a few dates. She’s not giving up the pu$$y as easy as most—in many ways I actually like and respect her for it. I think there are alot of DJs who think if a chick give it up in 1-2 dates he's the ONLY one she'd do that with, LOL, right...

Most guys hang with loser chicks even if they're hot. I don't.

[Francisco d'Anconia]

I understand what you're saying, but how much of what you think is a 'power game' should be basic pragmatism for a man? I think a primary failing that AFCs internalize and have been conditioned from childhood to believe for the past 40 years is that they need to be "more in tune with their feelings", "more in touch with their feminine side" and "more sensitive to her needs." All this has resulted in is confusion and frustration on an AFC's part because he does what he's been taught to believe is expected of him to get what he's really after - sex and intimacy - only to find that the more he identifies with the feminine the more she rejects him in favor of more masculine men who are polar opposites not only of what she says she wants, but what he's spent a better part of his life time to evolve his personality into.
:nervous: You're scaring me Rollo in that guys are walking around feeling this way (I don't typically notice these guys) but I have to agree with 'ya. I can really see how they would be so frustrated. But, if you choose to follow the path that others have laid, should you expect to arrive at a destination different from other AFCs? [Rhetorical question]
...I'm not saying a certain amount of "opening up" to a woman isn't necessary for a good communicative relationship, but I think that given the history I've described for the past 40 years, men's first impulse now is to over-emotionalize themselves to women on a moments notice in an effort to secure her intimacy.
:nervous: You're scaring me again.... But yes, men are typically polar in nature and it definitely shows in their interactions with women. Every encounter is either "all" or "nothing." It's basically a lack of control in that they can not adjust appropriately. Staying at one polar extreme isn't control. It's like trying to drive down a winding mountain pass with your foot either on the brake or mashing the accelerator to the floor; how much control is that?

The reason women respond so well to guys who are "emotionally unavailable" is because they're so rare now. Women want to figure guys out. They want to read his book chapter by chapter, not read the synopsis on the back cover or have the cliff notes of it crammed down her throat on the first date. Unfortunately this is the default for most guys today.

Agreed that women want to learn about men but at the same time men need to understand how to do that without pouring bottles of maple syrup down her throat. How's that for a picture?

Information, emotional availability, personal history, and all of the things that women seem to prize in their emotional, communicative psyches needs to be meted out by men as a reward for a woman when she displays the behaviors that men value (i.e. usually sex and intimacy).
Very true. But until men understand why women prize these particular things, he will be at a disadvantage in doing his part in managing the relationship.

Just like being sparing with gifts, a man should only disclose himself occasionally as a reinforcer and just enough to keep her even more intrigued than she was before. My wife of course knows every intimate detail about me, but if my wife is exceptional in bed on a particular night I occasionally buy her flowers the next day, this is a covert reward. I do not, however, buy her flowers as a gesture to get her to be exceptional in bed, this is would be a bribe.
I wholeheartedly agree that a man shouldn't gush about his entire life when going through the ritual of qualifying one another. Actually, his history doesn't need to come up at all if his lifestyle is true to his being whether he's in a relationship or not. Too often guys make bad personal decisions by adjusting themselves so greatly while in a relationship. The changes are so great that they become bitter after the breakup. What's even worse is that some guys start spewing about these mistakes with the next women they encounter; talk about self defeating... :rolleyes:

BTW, I'm thankful you weren't on that bridge when it collapsed FRANCISCO.
Thanks. Life is like a deadly game of musical chairs, but what will you do if you don't play? So when the music's playing, you're planning your move and having a good time while ever vigilant to get the last seat... ;)

[Victory Unlimited]

Once again, has anyone here ever heard of a guy getting dumped for being too intriguing, complex, challenging, or mysterious—at least for the first few months? [/B] In time, throw her a morsel, otherwise SHUT THE F UP.


Yo Dash,


I actually HAVE been "dumped" for being too intriguing, complex, challenging, and mysterious with a girl I had been dating for under 2 months. About 9 months ago, I had a woman to "suddenly" stop calling me, answering MY calls, or returning my messages. Two months go by, and on Christmas day I sent her a "Merry Christmas Text". For more on this tactic, check out this thread:

http://www.sosuave.net/forum/showthread.php?t=100399

Anyway, my "text bomb" detonated perfectly, and blew her apathy to smithereens. Within a few hours she was over my house. And ONE hour from her arrival, I had her legs over her head. lol

After indulging in a little "missile tow", she revealed to me that the reason she stopped seeing me two months ago was because I wasn't like most of the guys she'd met before----she said she coudn't "figure me out". So because of my enigmatic persona, and prodded by her low self-esteem (MY observations) and her overwhelming need for control and structure (HER own self-admitted observations) she consciously went about "filling in the blanks" concerning me ALL on her own.

She told me that she "imagined" me as the potentially controlling, sacreligious, unfaithful, PLAYER-type guy who didn't mean her any good. Now, ANYONE who knows me KNOWS none of these traits come anywhere NEAR close to describing me. What she admitted to doing was talking herself OUT of a relationship with me because I was TOO different from what she was used to. I was too much of a challenge to her cookie-cutter characterization chart-----so my ass got the ax. lol

But in the end, although she wanted to get together again and make a go of it, I did not. Because I realized the same incompatibilities that were revealed the last time we were together were STILL there after that Christmas romp we had.

So I guess the point of my little condensed field report here is to just stand up and allow myself to be used as "Exhibit A" of a guy who "might" have used too much DJ-ness on a girl who was too self-conscious, close-minded, and critical to appreciate it.



Peace...one day.

[RAFCbearfilm]

Dash,
Rollo and Interceptor both make good points and I have to side with Interceptor in thinking you are not giving her anything to latch on to.
You need to play a "little" AFC and let her know something more about you.
To example:
To save time in explaining, reread your OP Verbatim, well except the oral part ;). Anyways, I have NEVER had so much fun on the dates I was having with this girl and I have been on this site almost daily for maintenance checks to make sure I wasn't slipping into AFC land again. She also stated that she wanted to wait for sex and even though I have never waited past 3 dates before I figured why not, there felt like some definite potential with this one.
This woman breaks EVERY rule that most DJ's follow for quality status and yet I could not stop going forward with her. I played textbook DJ, challenging, mysterious amongst others and a lot of this stuff was really just flowed out naturally. Imagine my horror when I let slip with the "I like you" first. I started being a real sap telling her all this cool stuff just like a real AFC. (I cringe writing this for any AFC that will read this post thinking this is the right thing to do.) Bottom line was in every other way I was still in DJ mode, but I was moving into managing mode and releasing some of the mystery. Sure enough one night fooling around and in going for the close she put up the anti-slut defense but the close still took place.
She confirmed EVERY thing that is in the DJ bible as working. Almost as if she knew I was on the site. Loved the confidence, persistence, challenge, cockiness, and social proof said I was worth it. All of this was key in her attraction to me. Course none of that would have worked without having the chemistry between us.
We even broke up for the day cause she was scared where this seems to be going.
MY Point being? Yeah I may be gloating a little in this overlong post, but we really seem to be in similar situations. Talk to her, share a little, show some interest but stay in control. I let my gf tell me about her problems so she knows I care, but i will ask her occasionally if I need to put on a skirt so I can listen more attentively.
If your girl is as quality as mine appears to be then make a little more romantic effort but maintain control and your dominance. (that is an advanced move IMO)
Hope that helps and let me know if you need me to clarify anything.

Oh and Rollo, as much as I respect the advice you give, I waited about six weeks in total and let me tell you firsthand, BEST I have EVER had. EVER.

[STR8UP]

The reason women respond so well to guys who are "emotionally unavailable" is because they're so rare now. Women want to figure guys out. They want to read his book chapter by chapter, not read the synopsis on the back cover or have the cliff notes of it crammed down her throat on the first date. Unfortunately this is the default for most guys today.

That's how you know you're doing it right.

When she says "Why don't you ever tell me anything about yourself", you are on the right track. This means that she is probably sharing details of her life with you, and she is perplexed by your mysterious aura.

Ever since I figured out what makes women tick I have been as sparing with personal details as possible when talking to a woman. Let her DIG it out of you.

If we all went down to the stream and picked up one ounce gold nuggets all day long we wouldn't place much value on GOLD, would we? But if you have to know how to actually FIND the gold, then you have to spend all day panning for a few tiny specks of it, you are going to place a much higher value on it and it is going to make you WANT MORE.

Make her always want more...you're in. Give her everything she asks for on the first date....you're DUMPED.

[Bonhomme]

has anyone here ever heard of a guy getting dumped for being too intriguing, complex, challenging, or mysterious—at least for the first few months?

Heard of it? I've lived it. Like V_U described in his post, some of the gals probably figured me for some sort of sociopath.


Vulpine added:
Women can sense when you are faking or forcing things and will reflect that in their actions. I can't fault her for intentionally holding back if you are. You seem overly obsessed with "not spilling your guts". my emphasis

That's exactly what I wanted to say.

[Dash Riprock]

because I wasn't like most of the guys she'd met before----she said she couldn’t "figure me out". So because of my enigmatic persona, and prodded by her low self-esteem (MY observations) and her overwhelming need for control and structure (HER own self-admitted observations) she consciously went about "filling in the blanks" concerning me ALL on her own.

She told me that she "imagined" me as the potentially controlling, sacreligious, unfaithful, PLAYER-type guy who didn't mean her any good. Now, ANYONE who knows me KNOWS none of these traits come anywhere NEAR close to describing me. What she admitted to doing was talking herself OUT of a relationship with me because I was TOO different from what she was used to. I was too much of a challenge to her cookie-cutter characterization chart-----so my ass got the ax. lol

Why would you even WANT to get back together with a girl like this?

What an imagination she has. I suppose she thinks people are "looking at her" all the time too--I've dated these types. YIKES! She did you a FAVOR by nexting you. This chick has HUGE issues... can you imagine what life would be like full time with her?? -- constantly reading into crap...?

You see, I treat this girl very well when we're out, fun, romance, "playing" and am very affectionate when we're together. I give her a heavy helping of passion when we're together--at the right time--and she MELTS like you wouldn't believe. She projects her feelings w/o words very easily. So on this level, she's getting everything she needs.

90% of women subconsciously WANT a guy who doesn't reveal too much. The other 10% WILL dump you and do you a favor. Once again, I liken to the romance novel thing--WHY do you think their intrigued by Prince Charming and not boring, starchy, or worse wussy, spill your guts boy??? Or read the recent "jerk" article posted in this forum; emotion trumps logic for women *almost* all the time (read below).

You can be a good listener w/o being AFC, it's EASY. When she starts telling you things you look at her and then occasionally the ground (as to ponder) and then hold her close or give her a hug and don't say a word and by all means DON'T GIVE ADVICE--women hate that.

Most guys today are AFCs who talk too much and do too much especially early for the girl -- x10 if they're HOT.

So, MOST women are used to this treatment--comes along a guy who doesn't play by her rules and he's A LOT more attractive.

So play the game a little--big deal. Toy with her a$$ a little--so what? If a woman Dumps a guy because she cannot "figure him out" -- she is most likely a chronic controller who will demand every detail of you all the time, want explanations, and probably employ the most NON-LOVING attribute a woman can muster up...NAGGING. Fun times with this one...

The ONLY women that DON'T respond well to DJ tactics are the feministas, men-women, controllers, and all-out psychos as described by Victory Unlimited (but the sex with these 'psycho' types is the BEST---LOL).

If I get my ass dumped for showing a woman respect, fun, romance, affection, humor, but remain a little vague in the details of my life for the first couple months as to DJ her, fine, then my ass will get dumped and she'll be doing me a favor.

[Francisco d'Anconia]

...90% of women subconsciously WANT a guy who doesn't reveal too much. The other 10% WILL dump you and do you a favor.

So, does this woman want you to stay an enigma (which goes against what she has said about not knowing you) or will she dump you (which goes against everything that you know about how she feels about you)? Is their possibly a third option?

Guy's, you need to use the knowledge you gain from sites like this as nothing more than background information, it's not necessarily the gospel. You need to evaluate the situation you're in and the person you are dealing with independently of all the statistics when things don't seem to fall into nice, little, predictable buckets.

[Nighthawk]

A challenge is no fun if it's impossible. Look at the tv show Lost - it lost a lot of fans by not paying off on the mysteries often enough. Same with Twin Peaks back in the day. While Heroes for instance gets it just right, suspense, mystery, then a payoff that pulls you in further. You catch my drift.

[Victory Unlimited]

Yo Francisco,


I think you're right, dude. The ability to "go with the flow", and to use the DJ theories to benefit whatever present situation you're in IS the best way to play situations like Dash has described.

I really DO believe that the a man can do or reveal "ALMOST" anything about himself if he does it with the proper timing, with enough OBVIOUS self-control, and bucket loads of CONFIDENCE.

And Dash:

Yes, EVERYTHING you commented on about the woman form MY example was correct, she WAS a low self-esteem, overly critical, fault-finding control freak. The only reason I got with her again was because I was bored, in between women, and also, to possibly get some answers as to why she pulled that 2 month "disappearing act"-------to find out why the hell she flaked on me so badly when everything seemed to be going so well between us.

Oh, and the fact that she had a great body had NOTHING to do with it, I'm sure...lol.

And remember, all the things that I now KNOW about her, I only "suspected" about her BEFORE Christmas Day, post-sex conversation. So yes, although I did already have a sense of self-given CLOSURE, I chose to use that day as an opportunity to again test the power of my Holiday Text Bombs, to possibly find out what the hell happened with her, AND also to Deck her halls with BALLS of holley...lol.

But now that I DO know exactly what's up with her, I realize that she is definitely NOT LTR/Exclusivity material.

Onwards and Upwards, soldiers...

[Francisco d'Anconia]

Yo Francisco,


I think you're right, dude. The ability to "go with the flow", and to use the DJ theories to benefit whatever present situation you're in IS the best way to play situations like Dash has described.

I really DO believe that the a man can do or reveal "ALMOST" anything about himself if he does it with the proper timing, with enough OBVIOUS self-control, and bucket loads of CONFIDENCE....

Victory, you hit upon something that I personally believe is the basis of DJism; CONFIDENCE. But confidence goes well beyond making cold approaches and knowing what to do in every situation (is that even possible).

Confidence, specifically SELF confidence, for a DJ is not only being able to make a decision and execution, but also confidence in recognizing that when a situation doesn't seem to be working, being able to (confidently) to choose another path to achieve his goal or even to change the goal itself; all without feeling any lesser about himself just because it didn't come to fruition the first time.

Just my personal 2 cents....

[Rollo Tomassi]

If I get my ass dumped for showing a woman respect, fun, romance, affection, humor, but remain a little vague in the details of my life for the first couple months as to DJ her, fine, then my ass will get dumped and she'll be doing me a favor.

I have to laugh whenever I read guys writing about 'getting dumped'. "Well, if I don't do A, B, C & D Rollo she'll dump me for sure" to which I say SO. FUKKEN. WHAT? If you had 5 other plates spinning like you should, as well as this one, you NEVER get dumped. In fact, the very thought, the very mentality that would make a guy feel any anxiety about being 'dumped' is the best indicator of a Scarcity Mentality. If you are afraid of being dumped, you already have a Scarcity Mentality, simple as that.

DASH and many other AFCs turn this Scarcity Mentality into a point of pride thinking, "well, if she can't appreciate me being respectful, fun, romantic affectionate, funny, and any number of other pre-requisites she says she has inorder for me to qualify to get into her pants then she's not a quality woman and she's doing me a favor by dumping me." Look, it's not her dumping you that you need to be concerned about, it's WASTING YOUR FUKKEN TIME ON A BAD INVESTMENT while you voluntarily limit yourself from far better prospective women waiting around for her to come to some epiphany of appreciation for you that's the most damaging. The real problem is women wont do you the favor of giving you a straight rejection and saving you a lot of time, money and effort. Instead you'll get ambiguity, a BJ instead of intercourse, or a dozen different reasons to keep you guessing and your attention focused on her rather than your own interest. It's easy to peck at the keyboard with self-righteous declarations about how we all know better and how we'd make our stand if a woman were to clearly contradict our virtuous intents, but in the daylight of reality, women simply don't do this. They obscure, they conflate, they confuse and distract. Which is EXACTLY why I advise a counter-tactic of being guarded and rationing of personal and emotional information in the formative stages of a relationship. You play her covert game, you speak her covert language - that's why she can't figure you out; you know her tricks and and you turn them back on her. You're like no other guy she's ever known because you don't make the same predictable blunders everyother guy she's used to does. It's far better to err on the side of giving too little information than suffocating women with too much all at once.

I waited about six weeks in total and let me tell you firsthand, BEST I have EVER had. EVER.

Deprivation will make a cracker as good as filet mignon to the starving man.

[Francisco d'Anconia]

...Deprivation will make a cracker as good as filet mignon to the starving man.
:crackup: :crackup: :crackup:

Roll out the chubbies, everyone knows that biscuits are better than crackers!!! :p

[Dash Riprock]

Yes, EVERYTHING you commented on about the woman form MY example was correct, she WAS a low self-esteem, overly critical, fault-finding control freak. The only reason I got with her again was because I was bored, in between women, and also, to possibly get some answers as to why she pulled that 2 month "disappearing act"-------to find out why the hell she flaked on me so badly when everything seemed to be going so well between us.

Oh, and the fact that she had a great body had NOTHING to do with it, I'm sure...lol.

RIGHT ON, BROTHER!


Confidence, specifically SELF confidence, for a DJ is not only being able to make a decision and execution, but also confidence in recognizing that when a situation doesn't seem to be working, being able to (confidently) to choose another path to achieve his goal or even to change the goal itself; all without feeling any lesser about himself just because it didn't come to fruition the first time.

Just my personal 2 cents....

Agree 100%, read on:

The Girl told me the other day she felt I had a "wall up" and she was having a hard time "connecting" even though the physical attraction was there. She came over Sat. night and after dinner we went for a long walk. She asked me about my dad because I never spoke about him before. Tough nut--even though I knew I ran the risk of opening the door and showing some cards and some vulnerability, I talked for a few minutes about him (he was chem. dependent, bad situation) w/o going into too much detail. I finished by saying I’m glad I went through it because I’m much stronger, better for it and would never be the man I am had I not endured what happened (all very true--I've based my biz and career around the lessons that situation taught me). As the night progressed, I could easily sense she seemed more "connected” (using her lang.) Throwing her just a tid bit of info about something quite personal seemed to be a huge deal to her.

There's no clear-cut answer to this but, I think smart guys play the mystery card for a while and then, when the time is right, divulge a little more about themselves as to not convey that they are not communication Neanderthals--NO chick wants that.

Being a DJ is a lot about knowing when to use which tool when while ALWAYS practicing your basic principles (3 C's for me). Can you be mysterious, use kino, push-pull, negs, c&f, all the time ?--NO.

It takes and practice and every situation is different.

MLB pitching is a good analogy; some batters you throw heat, some change-ups, and others the big curve--all in a different order. But, you still need to consistently throw strikes, get guys out, and have a plan for each hitter.

[RAFCbearfilm]

Enjoy your cracker then Dash, I hear it tastes like steak! :)

[Francisco d'Anconia]

...The Girl told me the other day she felt I had a "wall up" and she was having a hard time "connecting" even though the physical attraction was there...
Sounds like she was just going through the motions; LITERALLY!!! But at least you know that there's a physical attraction, hopefully the actual "act" won't disprove it.
...
She came over Sat. night and after dinner we went for a long walk. She asked me about my dad because I never spoke about him before.
I'm curious, did she actually tell you that? You know the most influential person who defines the root personality of a person is their same sex parent? Now exactly what did you tell her about your father?
...
Tough nut--even though I knew I ran the risk of opening the door and showing some cards and some vulnerability, I talked for a few minutes about him (he was chem. dependent, bad situation) w/o going into too much detail.

I think that was enough detail... :whistle:
...
I finished by saying I’m glad I went through it because I’m much stronger, better for it and would never be the man I am had I not endured what happened (all very true--I've based my biz and career around the lessons that situation taught me).
Whew, not a bad comeback but you're probably going to need to show her that you are a better person because of it just to assuage any uncertainties she may have.
...
As the night progressed, I could easily sense she seemed more "connected” (using her lang.) Throwing her just a tid bit of info about something quite personal seemed to be a huge deal to her.
Y'know why? You made her feel special, valued, accepted. Those are the the things most women seek. Some just need it way more than others.
...
There's no clear-cut answer to this but, I think smart guys play the mystery card for a while and then, when the time is right, divulge a little more about themselves as to not convey that they are not communication Neanderthals--NO chick wants that.

True, but at the same time she needs to feel a connection with you. This can easily be done without telling her your life story or hardly any portions of it. She just needs some piece of you to make her feel connected and that doesn't need to be a part of your history either. Hell it can be rather simple, I have women go grocery shopping with me and then we cook dinner together afterward. You'd be surprised at the types of things that will pacify a woman's need to feel connected.
...
Being a DJ is a lot about knowing when to use which tool when while ALWAYS practicing your basic principles (3 C's for me). Can you be mysterious, use kino, push-pull, negs, c&f, all the time ?--NO.
You could but it's not necessary; at least with a qualified woman with a high interest level. The key is keeping her interested and being an enigma isn't the best way.

[jonwon]

I think the theme of this thread has lost its course.

The thread now seems to be a discusion an if a man should open up to allow a women in.

great points on that by the way.

But i am going to knock this thread back on course.

Point one:

The thread was started, if the OP admits it or not, for the fact he is trying to get laid!

That is the bottom line fact, he is trying to do things to allow him to get laid, to brake down barriers to get this women to spread the legs of love and 'allow' him entrance.

This seems a little too convienent for me! Especcially from the womens perspective.

Number 1:

She states she gets attached to guys when she has sex!

Point 1, She has given you a clear message that to get her to be attached to you is to spread her legs and give her a bloody good fuc*ing!

But for some reason your now playing the head and mind games, when in fact you should be working on the lower region games :D

Number 2:
You give her oral sex and you enjoy it.

Point 2:
You give her oral sex, i expect she returns the favour?
By the fact your giving her oral sex, shows she is not prudish when it comes to sex, which illustrates this is about 'control', trust me on this if she is letting you go down there, there is nothing stopping you from going down there with the other thing too.


This is my assesment of the situation.

Assesment one:
She likes you and needs to be reassured you wont just get your leg over and then dump her.

If this is so: Then you need to let her in a little and show her she means more to you then simply a quick fuc*. This can be communicated with words.

For the sake of mind games in this respect she simply needs to know your not going to wipe your kn** on the curtains when done and walk out of the door.


Assesment two:
She knows you want sex badly and she enjoys watching you squirm and find ways to try to get her in bed.

She can take it or leave, it which means she has Low interest level with you, she does not see you as sexual but does not mind recieveing some pleasure from you, i mean she is not totally repulsed but her interest is not that high!

She enjoys the power she has over you, the lengths you will go to to sacrifice self worth for se8 with her.


Action:

Regardless of which scenario, i think you have little to loose.
You can show her your not here to 'use' her! and after that if she still does not give it up, this is what you MUST DO!

STOP giving her ORAL SEX!

STOP contacting her as much, let her do the CHASING!

Then when she proves she has high interest or it starts to rise to a decent level, then you initiate the SEX CONVERSATION type deals again.

IF she still holds out, take it as a sign if you married her she would probably be once a month if your lucky type anyway!


FACT ONE:
She has already told you sex is not a problem for her as it makes 'her get attached' her words quoted from her own mouth and you still have not obsorbed it!

You also think too much, that is not a good thing.

[Rollo Tomassi]

As the night progressed, I could easily sense she seemed more "connected” (using her lang.) Throwing her just a tid bit of info about something quite personal seemed to be a huge deal to her.

Hmm,..and since you didn't post it, can we assume she's still holding out on you after all this?

Also, does she have kids?

[Francisco d'Anconia]

Point one:

The thread was started, if the OP admits it or not, for the fact he is trying to get laid!

True. But personally, I believe she's willing to fvck him if she could be confident that he won't just fvck her and leave her. She's attracted to him, they've already been physical and she outright said what's holding her back. It would be a done deal if he could make her feel that everything that he's done so far isn't just an act to get laid.

[azanon]

True. But personally, I believe she's willing to fvck him if she could be confident that he won't just fvck her and leave her. She's attracted to him, they've already been physical and she outright said what's holding her back. It would be a done deal if he could make her feel that everything that he's done so far isn't just an act to get laid.

Essentially what I advised. The stern cool DJ that doesn't "bargain" gets no pvssy with this one. How do we know? He tried that already. The one that opens up with her in an equaled and balancing manner probably will (meaning don't give a comprehensive life biography). If that goes against standard DJ advise, then so be it.

But hey I agree, don't overinvest. Try the different approach and if it doesn't work in short time, move on.

[RAFCbearfilm]

While we wait for feedback Dash, what is this all about?
My Story: I WAS a Grade AA AFC...not anymore (http://www.sosuave.net/forum/showthread.php?t=127938)

Just curious cause reading it sounded like your OP. I got to think that she would not be that big of a challenge to a guy like you. I am going to assume your not updating cause you hit it and problem solved.

P.S. Rollo, I really mean no disrespect cause you give great advice. I gotta say I am loving these crackers and stuffing my face with them every weekend! :)

[Francisco d'Anconia]

....P.S. Rollo, I really mean no disrespect cause you give great advice. I gotta say I am loving these crackers and stuffing my face with them every weekend! :)

Mmmmmmmm.... Saltyyyyyy.... Arrrrrrrggggggggg.......

[Dash Riprock]

UPDATE by DASH:

Boys-

Thanks for words. Here's where the dealio stands:

-Last Sat/Sun as mentioned, we had a number of sessions--all oral--until session #5 she asks if I want to Fvck. I tell her "no" (you read correctly) -- just to screw with her (read on). Plus, what I'm getting instead (awesome head) is better than nailing her with a condom on anyway (PIA). By this time, I'm getting sick of the P-chase—and it’s about getting your rocks off the best way possible anyway, right?
-After session #5, she asks what the chances are for a #6 , I tell her I'll call her that night and do phone sex with her instead, "I'll walk you through it" I tell her jokingly.
-Frankly, I think I'm losing interest in her. I considered her for a LTR but now it's a small chance. I haven't called her in a few days. I need a break from her. We weren't technically "exclusive" either because I wouldn't cave into her demands.

Soooo....

I'm distancing myself a bit until I figure if she is what I want. Yeah, she's hot, good bod, good head, etc., but there are some flags with her too that go against my values and standards. So we'll see how she reacts to the time off. I'll keep you posted.

DR

[Dash Riprock]

While we wait for feedback Dash, what is this all about?
My Story: I WAS a Grade AA AFC...not anymore

This is my story/gift to the AFCs that visit this board. This is perhaps one of the greatest moments in my "career" - the moment I cast off the AFC sh*t forever.

FVCK ITS GOOD TO BE A MAN!

[Rollo Tomassi]

Last Sat/Sun as mentioned, we had a number of sessions--all oral--until session #5 she asks if I want to Fvck. I tell her "no" (you read correctly) -- just to screw with her.

This was ƒucking NAILS!!

My respect for you DASH has gone through the roof now. THIS is how it's done gentlemen. She tries to esablish the frame and you remove her agency. Take the power back. My money says she pursues you that much more fervently now.

FVCK ITS GOOD TO BE A MAN!

Better late than never. You get an A+.

[azanon]

Plus, what I'm getting instead (awesome head) is better than nailing her with a condom on anyway (PIA). By this time, I'm getting sick of the P-chase—and it’s about getting your rocks off the best way possible anyway, right?

I FULLY agree, and its the #1 reason I have little regrets about a past gaming life with many, many women. Sex with condoms (IMO) just flat out sucks and is no comparison to without one. It would certainly be no comparison to getting head from a woman that knows how to do it right. Sure, you're with a unique girl but that natural feeling just goes out the door with a condom. I hate them so much, I would just end up "risking it" over and over (trying to get them on the pill), and either end up getting one pregnant or with a permanent STD.

STDs/pregnancy I think are the #1 reason the most useful feature of this site is gaining the skills to snag an outstanding, exceptional LTR woman that you can have natural sex with. The alternatives are sucky sex (condom-on sex) with different women or Russian-roulette pregnancy/STDs.

[Francisco d'Anconia]

....
-Frankly, I think I'm losing interest in her. I considered her for a LTR but now it's a small chance. I haven't called her in a few days. I need a break from her. We weren't technically "exclusive" either because I wouldn't cave into her demands.....

:crackup: :crackup: :crackup:

I love it! It seems so ironic but really it's very true to life. Once you sit back and really consider the situation you're in and how it relates to what's really important to you, it's surprising where women (among other things in general) fall into the grand scheme of things. Either way, best to find out sooner rather than later where/if she fits.

[Dash Riprock]

Soooo....

I'm distancing myself a bit until I figure if she is what I want. Yeah, she's hot, good bod, good head, etc., but there are some flags with her too that go against my values and standards. So we'll see how she reacts to the time off. I'll keep you posted.

Sure enough, just like Pavlov's dogs...I don't call her all week and she emails me at 8:30 AM this morning telling me about her week, how was mine, that she saw (my beloved!) Milwaukee Brewers got hammered (and she knows sh*t about baseball--too funny) and she wants to get together this weekend.

I'm going to reply to her email later telling her I want to chill this weekend and maybe next week we can get a gelato and chat -- the "I'll call you whenever" (like Monday) sort of thing.

It's ALL about having "HAND," boys.

I'm not sure what I prefer anymore:

Fvcking women
or
Fvcking WITH women

"A man without hand is not a man"
-George Costanza

[azanon]

I'm not sure what I prefer anymore:
Fvcking women
or
Fvcking WITH women



OK, lets not take this too far! :cool: Nothing wrong with being cool, having game and all of that, but......

[Francisco d'Anconia]

Sure enough, just like Pavlov's dogs...I don't call her all week and she emails me at 8:30 AM this morning telling me about her week, how was mine, that she saw (my beloved!) Milwaukee Brewers got hammered (and she knows sh*t about baseball--too funny) and she wants to get together this weekend.

I'm going to reply to her email later telling her I want to chill this weekend and maybe next week we can get a gelato and chat -- the "I'll call you whenever" (like Monday) sort of thing.

It's ALL about having "HAND," boys.

I'm not sure what I prefer anymore:

Fvcking women
or
Fvcking WITH women

"A man without hand is not a man"
-George Costanza

Evil bastard... Good job! :up:

[Francisco d'Anconia]

OK, lets not take this too far! :cool: Nothing wrong with being cool, having game and all of that, but......

Please don't say anything about karma, but I think I know what you're getting at. I'm willing to guess that Dash still has a bit of interest in her, just not with the intensity that he previously had.

[Dash Riprock]

OK, lets not take this too far! Nothing wrong with being cool, having game and all of that, but......

Nooo, I would never purposely hurt a woman for the hell of it. I just get a kick out of how well some respond to certain DJ tactics--especially after reading posts on here about dudes getting dissed, stories from my buds, etc. It’s good to level the playing field.

Francisco, I do still have some interest in her, but not as much. I'm going to set up a mid-weeker with her next week and see how it goes.

[azanon]

Hey both you guys, you are misunderstanding what i was trying to convey; sorry about that. I was saying lets not go so far as to say you prefer (insert something besides fvcking women) over fvcking women! Just joking about that.

Carry on!

[Francisco d'Anconia]

...Francisco, I do still have some interest in her, but not as much. I'm going to set up a mid-weeker with her next week and see how it goes.

No fault in that. You're just pulling her from the starting lineup (weekend dates) and putting her in as a reliever (weekday dates). What she does next will determine her order in the rotation or if you send her down to the minors. :up:

[Francisco d'Anconia]

Hey both you guys, you are misunderstanding what i was trying to convey; sorry about that. I was saying lets not go so far as to say you prefer (insert something besides fvcking women) over fvcking women! Just joking about that.

Carry on!
:up:Gotcha!

[blueguy]

It’s good to level the playing field.
Dude, it's been a war. They've been chatting away for years trying to figure out how to manipulate us. It's all an inside joke between them. They laugh to each other about how pvssy-whipped their men are. You ever catch them in a girl-girl conversation? They figured us out a long time ago. And it spread like a wildfire. Now, they have all of their propaganda sh1t firmly set in society, with many of the propagandists being men (because they believe it)!

It's about time for a change.

[Dash Riprock]

They figured us out a long time ago.

Not so fast my friend...

They THOUGHT they figured us out, well, 90% of men THEY DO have figured out. BUT...

The Secret Weapon we have is something called "Being a DJ" -- unlike ANYTHING they have ever encountered before:

"WHAT!? He's NOT interested in me?! I MUST have him then!"
"No weekend dates--just WHAT DO you do on weekends?"
"Why don't you call me EVERY DAY like all the other guys?"
"You INSULT ME with your cocky jokes and wise-a$$ attitude (but I'm strangely attracted...I....I...MUST have MORE)"
"And you don't FREAK OUT when I'm hanging all over another guy?! WHY? Don't you love me??!! booo hoooo"

And this is just the tip of the iceberg--keep reading this site, David De and Doc Love.

[Rollo Tomassi]

DASH, well done. I'm sure you're beginning to understand the covert messages you're conveying to her now. My guess is she'll pursue in spite of your apparent disconnect. Remember, let a woman's imagination work for you. Be sure that you keep your takeaway, subtle and matter-of-fact. If you tip your hand and go overt on her even slightly and she'll see it as punishment. In the meantime, spin more plates. Get out and sarge.

DASH proves a valuable lesson here - what seems counterintuitive sometimes works better. Remember back in driver's ed when they told you to turn into a skid if you find yourself skidding? Every bone in your body tells you to stand on the brakes, but that only makes things worse. It's when you train yourself to go against what your impulse tells you, tamp down the fear and turn into the skid that the car rights itself.

[Last Man Standing]

This whole thread is about how a hor controls a man!!! What the hell is wrong with you!!! Never lick a hor!!! Her vagina is made for a penis and NOT a tongue!!! She is controlling you!!! Wake the hell up!!!!!!!!!!! It is your penis that gets erect - not your tongue!!!!!! Think about it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You lead and she follows - after she continuously refuses, and if she is not a virgin, then move on!!

[eyedogg]

Some how - I HAVE to agree with L.M.S. - she's a STOOOPID chick and move on.

[Dash Riprock]

John 467--

I hear ya, bud. Read my also few posts and you’ll see how things have evolved between the Girl and I. Our relationship IS VERY sexual; I give her a lot of affection when we're together, back off a little bit, she goes nuts, we use many "proprs" during sex, etc., go in for more, let her reciprocate, you get the picture.

I've pulled back a bit the last week and she's pushing to get together--hence, her IL is still pretty high, >90%.

Also, I've know her for more than a year before I started dating her so it wasn't a "cold approach" or anything. She has THE QUALITIES for an LTR I look for, but I won't commit to be exclusive with her after a couple of requests by her. I think making a choice about the 3-month mark with the chick is the earliest.

I disagree with your view on lack of challenge or lack of mystery working in your favor. You need to find the balance with this.

Keep in mind MOST guys go WAY too fast when they're with a hot chick. Sure, women like attention, BUT, too much too soon and their IL drops--guaranteed.

My MO: Hold back a little, use c&f, bust her, make yourself scarce between dates, no chit-chat phone calls (that is SO AFC), save the communication and interaction for when you see her face-to-face, pull back a little, go back in harder, keep advancing.

Remember, most hot chicks have seen guys make the same mistakes over and over. Men are generally predictable. If you want to catch, fvck, and hang onto a HOT CHICK, then you need to be different. You also need her to validate herself to you by asking questions, showing LOTS of confidence, etc.

Thanks for the words my man--well taken!