Hey guys. I've been seeing this adorable, beautiful 25 year old HB8.5 for nine months. I live in a studio apartment that is integrated into her home. I rent the apartment from her mother, who she lives with. I get along very well with her mother. She knows i am seeing her daughter and predicted it would happen the day i visited to check out the place last July. The whole situation is very informal and i don't feel like "the tenant". Both she and her mom are homebodies, for the most part. The girl used to be much more active, socially. Now, her purebred German Shepard is her life along with watching TV and talking with her mom...

I resisted getting physical with the girl but, things were so informal and it finally happened. Not long after we first kissed, we began having sex. She said she just wanted to keep things "fun and light". She made out with me when i came over. She would sleep with me till 2 in the morning on numerous occasions. She would respond when i invited her to my place. We had sex fairly often. She loved going down on me and told me so. I never had to ask her to. Easily the best head i have ever gotten. She once came over saying that she got herself worked up thinking about fvcking me and had to come over and do it for real. She had tons of compliments for my looks and hair and called me "sexy".

Then i began going AFC. Visited her every night, lots of attention, etc. One evening, we went out to our fave local restaurant and i got pissed when she gave me sh*t about being cheap. She had been razzing me playfully for being cheap and i was sensitive about it. I make good money, but have a bit of debt so I often hemmed and hawed over prices. (We did alternate paying for meals out and still do). So i get mad and a wall went up between us. The bad vibe that night was obvious. It was our first "fight". I just wanted to leave. I warmed to her before heading back to the apartment and she was warm back.

We still carried on over the next month, but something had changed. The sex dropped. The make-outs ended. She stopped coming over specifically for sex. She wouldn't respond when i tried to initiate sex. I got confused and hurt and thought that maybe we were too far apart in age and too different in general. I suggested maybe we would work better as friends. She didn't fully accept this, but that's when things really dropped off, of course. I kept visiting, but she was reserved and didn't respond to any of my advances. Months later, i told her i still liked her and she said she still had feelings for me. I embraced her and gave her plenty of kino. It really had me charged to be so bold. She didn't object but didn't respond back. When she didn't fully get back into our old groove, i stopped visiting her altogether. I wasn't going to AFC her. The ball was in her court. She never came over and we didn't visit for two weeks (even though we lived in the same house). I began seeing another woman. One night, i visited the girl to stay in touch, and she noticed that i wasn't AFC anymore. She came over an hour later and hopped back into bed with me. All over me. I ended things with the other woman, who i didn't care for.

Things between me and the girl were like how it was at the beginning. She came over often, slept until 2AM. I visted her, but not as often. We ate out. Back to good vibes. I bought back into her and the sex petered out. She stopped responding to my overtures for sex. She claimed to be tired when i invited her over. She only had sex when SHE wanted it, which was 2x a month! We haven't made out since the first hot spell last fall. That is more significant than the sex dropping off.

All that to get to this question: Did i cause irreparable harm when i AFCed on her the first time around? I don't sense real desire from her anymore. That lust she originally had for me is nowhere to be found. I had to actually ask her to blow me last time and she only went down for a short time. The enthusiasm wasn't/isn't there. As you can imagine, it sucks having to ask her if she wants to come over and hint at sex. She DOES come over, uninvited, but if i get physical with her, she does NOT start up. She'll just lie there and leave soon thereafter. She'll tell me she's tired, but then i hear her up hours later. We last had sex two weeks ago.

Is the act of her coming over at all a possible invite for me to take the lead? Something tells me otherwise. How do you know when a woman wants sex? I kinda think that she's going to make it obvious. Too often i am guessing as to what this girl wants.

Overall, i think she's lost respect for me and no longer desires me, even though we are still friends and still go out. I think she finds me boring. Not much happens in my life. She did say she had other plans Friday night and that was a first. In the rare case that she comes over for sex, she is just using me rather than actually wanting me.

No more asking her over? No more putting my hands all over her while she sits there? Any salvaging her desire by transforming into a DJ? How do i determine how much watering this situation requires? How often do i visit her? If i visit her, does it come off as being an AFC?

Things to consider:

1. She still kisses me. In fact, she playfully demands good night kisses. But she does not make out with me. She often slaps me on the a$$...
2. I have never turned her down for sex...
3. I don't have much of a social life. I'm home EVERY night and on the weekends. I have talents in music and the visual arts. I intend on bettering myself and my scene. Then she can chase me...

All that to get to this question: Did i cause irreparable harm when i AFCed on her the first time around?

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I'm afraid that's how it works. It's like some switch is thrown in her mind forever. When you're out, you're out. Pretty much everyone's experience will agree with this.

No more asking her over? No more putting my hands all over her while she sits there? Any salvaging her desire by transforming into a DJ? How do i determine how much watering this situation requires? How often do i visit her? If i visit her, does it come off as being an AFC?

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I find it hugely important in any established relationship to rarely (or even never) initiate touching with the female. You can escalate every time, sure. But that 1st hello kiss, grabbing hands, let her passion for you take care of that.

2. I have never turned her down for sex...

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Not, in itself, a bad thing. Turning her down just makes a girl feel unsexy.

3. I don't have much of a social life. I'm home EVERY night and on the weekends. I have talents in music and the visual arts. I intend on bettering myself and my scene. Then she can chase me...

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Please do, but I doubt she'll be chasing you. I think it's too late.

I often don't like to go out either, but I force myself to go once a week. Social life takes work! Just like career and fitness.

You need to ask yourself about your own emotions. If you still want a real relationship with this girl, you need to cut her out to stop the pain. But if you can handle it, by all means continue as her FB, and go to as many parties/clubs as possible with her. She can improve your social life.

MAy I ask

what are your standards? What are you NOT willing to accept in a relationship? What must you have, or you're gone?

Good points, Phyzzle. I agree about AFC resulting in game over. This isn't a situation where we date and go back to our respective homes. Because we're under the same roof, we are almost like family, so she's seen the real me. No hiding any chump factor. She's got the goods on me. In my mind, i have put her in a superior place to me. She simply has more power than me - in my mind. You can imagine how she has picked up on that. I have cared what she thinks, and i haven't been my funniest, most free, most confident self around her. I have to change that and i have been teasing her, pushing back more lately. She's pushy, sarcastic, and at times, bratty. She's definitely a strong personality.

One thing i have considered: She may also have backed off the sex because she doesn't want to come off looking like a slut who is regularly banging the tenant. Just a thought. Still, the lack of chemistry and all-around compatibility plus the age/maturity difference has got to be a major factor. My chief concern is maintaining a purely sexual relationship with her. I know she and i can't connect in any deep way. Things are strictly superficial between us. I think she's adorable and beautiful and i don't need to have some profound connection with her. Friends and sex. I just want the sex to be as often as possible, within reason. What i must do now is not expect it. Women know when you want or expect sex and that's when you are least likely to get it. I have to truly expect nothing from her.

You're in the friend zone again. I personally am not one to believe that there is a permanent switch there as I've hopped in and out of it a few times before. You obviously finally did the right thing by pulling away after awhile the first time things went wrong. Unfortunately, it took you too many rejections on her part for you to finally do so. Minus points.

Is it irrepairable? No. But I would suggest you not try to play[/] your way out of it as you will probably eventually reveal your desire for her (once again) that is so strong that you are willing to settle for being just a friend. Whenever she finds out that she doesn't have to "put out" to keep your attention, that's when things go downhill.

This girl sounds lonely. But despite that fact, no girl - even lonely girls - do not want to commit to somebody that is readily available. They want to keep their options open for the right guy. She knows you will be there. She does no fear losing you. Her biological clock is satisfied since she has secured you after having sex. She does not have to hold a relationship with you that involves sex. Perhaps the fact that you live so closely makes things worse.

Your only option is to care less about her. Raise your value relative to hers to the point where you want her less, and she will want you again. Do not try to play the situation. You can only play something for so long.

Will she come back? It sounds like she may drop by once in awhile. You need to care less about her and focus on other things. Be away. If she finally senses you leaving in the emotional sense - and she likes you - and she has no better suitors - she will once again get hot and horny for you to satisfy her imperatve reproductive need.



Ok edit... sounds like you answered your own question. You already know all this sh! t.

I think that you should just be indifferent towards her. Treat her like you would a friend. I think that on of the toughest parts of the game is once you are in the friends zone 85% there is no turning back. She may come back to you if she wants attention or had a fight with her BF. But it will probably never be like it once was.


It could be very likely that she is seeing someone else. Woman usually don't like to be alone and when a woman distances herself toward you, they usually have found someone else. You say age may play a factor. 33-25 will not play a factor. Once a girl is 25 its open season. If she was 22 then it may be a factor.

My advice is as RT says start spinning plates, and don't sweat it.

Don't worry yourself over this one broad. You're 33, you gotta weed out faster since you're not getting any younger. She's 25, she can play her options for a long while. Keep your options open.

GtarPlayr73 said:

Good points, Phyzzle. I agree about AFC resulting in game over. This isn't a situation where we date and go back to our respective homes. Because we're under the same roof, we are almost like family, so she's seen the real me. No hiding any chump factor. She's got the goods on me.

One thing i have considered: She may also have backed off the sex because she doesn't want to come off looking like a slut who is regularly banging the tenant. Just a thought. Still, the lack of chemistry and all-around compatibility plus the age/maturity difference has got to be a major factor. ##17, my chief concern is maintaining a purely sexual relationship with her. I know she and i can't connect in any deep way. Things are strictly superficial between us. I think she's adorable and beautiful and i don't need to have some profound connection with her. Friends and sex. I just want the sex to be as often as possible, within reason. What i must do now is not expect it. Women know when you want or expect sex and that's when you are least likely to get it. I have to truly expect nothing from her.

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It looks like, from how you described, that she knows she has power over you, she knows you're going to put up with her BS and stick around. And so she lost her attraction for you. And when that happens, the sex just aint gonna happen, get what I'm saying?

Thanks, guys. Will def keep my options open. I know that doing so is crucial to getting my focus off of her and onto getting new plates spinning. It IS incredible and it blows my mind that a woman who was all about me physically can just not want sex as much now. Goes to show how attraction is not just purely physical with women and they can get turned off. BUT then again…if she is getting her fix from someone else, then it would make sense. But honestly, because I live under the same roof, I know when she’s out, working, socializing, etc. She parks right outside my apartment. She is home virtually every night. She will go out maybe once a week with a guy friend of hers, but they usually go to a local restaurant, nowhere near enough for her to have sex regularly with him. Other than that, she works out at a local gym. She really is home all the time when she’s not working three days a week. So, I don’t think she is seeing someone else. Again, she has no girlfriends and a few guy friends. Another clue: protection. I don’t wear any when I’m with her and she is otherwise conscientious about protection. (She wanted me to wear one when I was seeing that other woman). So if she was getting it from someone else, she would tell me to wear on the rare occasion when we have at it.

OK, this is a crucial question: how do I handle her when she comes over and gives me a peck, embraces me (for minutes), etc.? I think it’s obvious that she’s just getting some free touches and attention. Best not to reject these moves, but I shouldn’t interpret them as hints for sex or expressions of deep affection. Nor should I take the initiative to touch her. She touches me, I won’t touch her. If she does get affectionate, I’ll reciprocate, but only to the same degree. No escalation. So hard though, when she’s so cute looking into your eyes and that cleavage is right there and the hair is smelling like heaven.

If she comes over and lays down on my bed, face-up and arms above her head, would you take that as a definitive “come-and-get-me” sign? I do. This is really the only sign I would interpret as an invitation. If she’s just sitting on my bed, she doesn’t want it. I won’t make any moves.

So I think we are all agreed then that when she comes over, she’s really just looking for some quick attention. She’s not coming over because she thinks I’m just such an interesting and happening guy and she really wants to bask in my presence. I KNOW she doesn't find me interesting or fascinating. She's kinda artsy-cultured with a little bit of punk thrown in. She loves men like Anthony Bourdain. Can't compete with that. (But she also loves Dwight Schrute...). Now I do think I’m interesting, but the happening bit is definitely not on right now and I’m not confident she is capable of appreciating me anyway. We have never really connected in a deep way. The possibility to do so isn’t there.

BTW - she does call me “Doll”! But I’m a man! Anyone else get called this?!

All these little things like slapping your ass, asking you to kiss her cheek, calling you doll, etc. is just her way of tryin to gain control over you. And it works. It's the same reason girls will call you a friend too even if they want more than that. All mind games.

Don't read into them as they are NOT an effective way of gauging interest level.

You say that you think she's above your level, but if you could just see through that persona, I'm sure she's not quite as sophisticated as you think.

She is playing you. But if she can no longer play you, she will gain a new found respect for you. Then again, I still think you shouldn't focus on her too much as a girl that is playing these games is not suitable for a relationship unless she turns around 180 degrees.

Don't change yourself for her. When she comes over, just tell her you're busy. Do not act mad or as if you are intentionally ignoring her. Just act as if you have other things to do. Tell her you have to study or whatever you do. If you start seeing another girl, great. Tell her you gotta go because you are going out with a friend. Let her find out that the friend happens to be a girl, etc.

Thanks, bg. So let her in, but tell her i'm busy after a few minutes? No sexy times are gonna happen if i do that, but i understand what's more important: respect and fulfillment. If i block her at the door, it's gonna be unprecedented and a real awkward situation. I can just hear her saying "busy? doing what?". Maybe i'll let her in and just be friendly but not encourage her visit. I did this over the weekend. I talked to her, but didn't do the usual get-up-and-sit-next-to-her routine. She was out in less than five minutes, saying "Well, i just wanted to come over and say hi". No more visits to her place? Overall, I think she will cool off significantly over the next week or two until she realizes i no longer am all about her, then she'll be over and between the sheets as she did last time things cooled. She'll reach that "minimum-attention-required" threshold.

It is AMAZING how controlled women are by their need for attention! It's actually pathetic (just as women find men's slavery to the male sex drive pathetic). The reality of the genders: men are controlled by their sex drive while women are controlled by their "attention drive". Women manipulate men by appealing to the male sex drive while men manipulate women by granting or denying women attention. The goal for both sexes: make me feel valuble. Such is the default insecurity of human consciousness...

But just to see this girl play me for attention is eye-opening. And it injects new steel into my resolve, now that i fully appreciate her motives. As for sex, it will only come after she respects me once more, which will actually just be a by-product of my own personal improvement and growth. Until then, she gets no more attention from me. Yes, i do think i'm the more sophisticated person, due to my age and greater self-awareness. I've just been in the habit of subordinating myself to the strong-personality women i have gotten involved with.

Sounds like you've got it figured out

I'd like to point out, that, last time things "cooled", you went out and got another woman.

Then what happened?

She jumped back in bed with you.

Then pulled the power thing with "wear a rubber" and she proved to herself "you are still hers".

Because what did you do?

:nono:

You got rid of the other woman.

Duh.

And what did your FB do?

Cooled again.

Here's an idea: get another woman. This time keep her around. Why? Two birds with one stone: you pursue other plates, AND your FB wants back in the sack with you because...

you're desireable again.

Step back and look at the situation. You are both "homebodies". You aren't exciting, but the thrill of fuxing the tenant IS. Then that gets old, then what's left? Nothing left but to play games to stave off the boredom. When you get another woman, there will be jealousy, the thrill of competition, and of course the sex again to counter the boredom.

From what I see, she craves drama more than she does the attention. You just don't mess with her emotions enough.

Perfect read, vulpine! Bulls-eye analysis. Thank you. OK. Onto that next woman. Then it's so much easier to put little miss FB in her appropriate place. Any ideas on how to mess with her emotions while i'm looking for more plates?

Get mad at her for not coming over? Be mad, stay mad, put her in the doghouse for something.

Park your car somewhere else and walk home so she thinks you're gone all the time? Or, better yet, be gone all the time?

Ask her if she has any hot friends to have a 3-way with?

Call her and wish her happy birthday?

Make her brownies, take them over, then upon seeing her, decide not to give them to her?

Move out of the apartment?

Yeah I say you accidentally slip part of the story about that "threesome" you had a few nights ago when she's outside your door. Remember? You know, you're on the phone, and she hears some bloody details and gets curious... That's when she wants in on some of the action too :cheer:

Bang her mom and let the HB find her sleeping in your bed. Then you got another plate spinnin', some drama and the potential 3-some thing going for ya

Simply call her someone else's name.

Chicks HATE that... drives 'em bonkers!

haha, sinistar! Her mom used to be a HB9.5, but not anymore. Too old for me, though she did tell her daughter that i was cute before i moved in...

vulpine, excellent idea - one that i already exercised NUMEROUS TIMES when i inadvertantly called her by her HOT, DRIVE-ME-CRAZY, BROWN-EYED BRUNETTE younger sister's name!

So the girl needs a wee bit of dissing, but nothing insulting. Hmmm...lying would be amusing but trouble if she snooped for details. Now asking her for a FFM lay with one of her hot friends would be great...

I'll crank up the teasing and neg hits. I've already started with this and she was finally on the defensive! So funny! Each little flirt-itating zinger was like another gnat buzzing around her until she lost her cool and started protested my "criticisms". And this from the HBFB who was used to dominating me! She can't stand it when i get a puzzled look on my face while examining a skin blemish or start prodding some spot on her leg. "What the f*ck are you doing?!!" Oh, and when i pointed out that she was going for "starchy carbs" late one night, i didn't hear the end of it for weeks! Her vanity is a big ole neon sign...

As for jealousy, an easy one would be to just start raving about how hot every other HB we come across is. The ice cream stand girls, the waitresses, actresses on tv, etc. I'll be so obviously on the market, her head will spin...

Ever talked to a girl who is talking to you solely to get your attention? Well, attention is the only reason why this girl talks to me and the experience is often awkward and stiff. She is always grasping at straws and searching, clumsily, for anything to talk about. My quirks are easy targets, so she’ll talk about those and put me on the spot half the time. She makes transparent and not-so-funny attempts at being "friendly" and comes off sounding disingenuous. She's not being herself. Whatever is quick, easy, obvious is what she will talk about. She talks only enough to keep me engaged and giving her attention. To have actual give-and-take convo's would require genuine interest in me, and she doesn’t have that. So my question is - how do i handle talking to her? Turn the tables? Razz and neg-hit her and then send her on her way? Humor her? Catch her out on whatever awkward thing she says? "Whaaat?" The goal is to minimize attention-getting conversation starters or talking points and keep things real. I think constantly shifting the focus off of me and back onto her is the best solution...