Being Christian and turning the other cheek

[Deus ex Pianoforte]

Why is that? Because the bible exists? Because others believe it was inspired by God?

Neither. You are forced to acknowledge the possibility because you have no proof of the contrary.

There is also no evidence that God does exist.

And I acknowledge that as well. We're both men of faith.

On the other side of the coin, you are wasting your life in the hopes that an afterlife exists.

How? By holding myself to a high moral code with foundations in practicing love, respect, and good will towards my fellow man? Hardly a wasted life, in my opinion. The crucial difference between my beliefs turning out to be false and yours turning out to be false, is that if mine are false...then nothing happens. I'm worm food. But a disproving of your belief system would prove to be much, much more dramatic as I'm sure you would agree with upon your first nanosecond spent in Hell.

Then how come you were incorrect in your assumptions of my beliefs?

I assumed that you don't believe in God or the Bible. If I'm mistaken, then I apologize.

[Deus ex Pianoforte]

Actually your so called "GOD" is suppose to be forgiving right? So if I die and apologize GOD is suppose to forgive me since everyone is BORN a SINNER and I should go to heaven or watever.

That's not how it works. This is a very basic aspect of Christianity. Everyone is born a sinner, and must repent and accept Jesus Christ as their savior BEFORE death. If you live a life of debauchery, then apologize when you find out you're gonna burn, it ain't gonna save you. ;)

How do you even know that heaven exists? and it's better than hell? What if it was the opposite?

If it's the opposite, then everything else in the Bible is invalidated so that question is academic.

So ya religion is BS no proof of God existing, the chance of him existing is about the same as Santa or the Easter bunny existing...

Ludicrous. It is well-known that "Santa" and the Easter bunny are fictional characters designed for children. The VAST majority of the world, however, believes in a supreme being. As I just explained to Desdinova, the consequences of your belief system turning out to be false versus mine turning out to be false is much more grave. We're talking a miscalculation of epic proportions on your part, here.

But, hey go ahead you can spend your time praying and wasting your time, I would prefer praying once I'm dead since I'll have ultimate time in heaven or hell.

Then by all means. Enjoy Hell.

[Francisco d'Anconia]

...Ludicrous. It is well-known that "Santa" and the Easter bunny are fictional characters designed for children. The VAST majority of the world, however, believes in a supreme being....

This reminds me of a paper I read a long time ago compairing the similarities between organized religions and cults. It was an interesting read. That's all that I'm going to say about that....

[Kwello]

Very profound. Be sure to let us know from the other side how "interesting" it is when you're on year 12,942 of having your johnson reduced to nothing with a potato peeler shaving by shaving, while someone cauterizes your anus with a blowtorch and simultaneously wrenching your eyeballs from their sockets with a claw-hammer. Maybe by that time I'll be stuck in Heaven, enjoying the company of scores of HB10 angels and basking in the glory of infinite bliss. Let me know how interesting it is, bud. I'm sure I'll be very curious.

Heres what atheism comes down to, in a nutshell. You don't have any proof that God exists or does not, just like everyone else. Therefore, you take your disbelief on an act of faith. According to the Bible, to not accept Jesus as your personal savior will result in eternal suffering in Hell. Now for reasons beyond my comprehension (because I am a Christian), atheists would rather maintain their disbelief of the Bible than accept it. Thus, if they cannot provide proof that God does not exist, they are taking a risk that the Bible is completely true and they WILL enter Hell upon death. So here we have atheists knowingly risking eternal pain after death for their beliefs, and Christians risking absolutely nothing for their beliefs. And those are the facts.

You drive a car which pollutes God's air and destroys His planet and endangers many of His creations. You think unpure thoughts of women (you even go so far as to think that in heaven you'll be some sort of Hugh Hefner character). You are a sinner... but don't worry, I'll let you hold my hand to ease the pain as they peel our ****s with those potato peelers you talked about.

[Deus ex Pianoforte]

You guys know that plenty of philosophers have spent numerous years arguing this, in a much more intelligent manner. Why don't you guys read about the "burden of proof" before you decide to play metaphysical science majors, because right now you are sounding like a bunch of coffee shop idiots.

Well, Two Posts...I'll tell you. I only see a select few actually "arguing" about this unintelligently, so you'd probably be better off playing Holier than Thou (no pun intended) with PM's. And you'd also avoid coming across as nauseatingly pretentious to a much smaller audience. Everybody wins! :D

[Kwello]

Also you've got no qualms with writing off Santa Claus as being fictitious, but what do you think Santa is? He's a piece of mythology to help inspire children to act good and properly throughout the year so that they get a reward for their efforts.

Welcome to exactly what I believe God and The Bible are. Mythology which helps people get some direction and balance into their lives. To teach and impart life's lessons through a series of stories and examples of how a good person 'should' act. I feel that once people start accepting these stories as facts, they start to lose hold on reality and what life is all about.

[Deus ex Pianoforte]

You drive a car which pollutes God's air...

Who told you that?

You are a sinner...

Just like everyone else. Your point?

I'll let you hold my hand to ease the pain as they peel our ****s with those potato peelers you talked about.

Sadly, I won't be there to comfort you. I've already repented. But I'll think happy thoughts for you if that helps...

[Call_Me_Daddy]

Who told you that?


You get electricity? 40% of energy is derived from coal burning plants.

You take the bus? Bus still pollutes the environment.

You eat food sprayed with pesticides? You're supporting big pharma and helping to poison people and ecosystems worldwide. Yes, most pesticides are bad.

Pay for TV? You're supporting immorality and sinning. What do you think TV is? A good pasttime?

Face it. You're screwed.

[Desdinova]

Neither. You are forced to acknowledge the possibility because you have no proof of the contrary.

I don't even bother thinking about the contrary. For me, there is no point in doing so. I'm quite happy where I am in my faith (or lack of faith).

How? By holding myself to a high moral code with foundations in practicing love, respect, and good will towards my fellow man? Hardly a wasted life, in my opinion.

I'm just trying to point out that convincing me to believe otherwise is pointless. I have no problems with people's faiths. What always bothers me is when I get told by Christians that I'm going to be killed off by Jesus because I don't believe in him. IMO, that's not a very loving attitude to have. I don't have such a morbid view of people who believe in God. The ones who push there beliefs are just a mere pain in the ass, but I wouldn't say that they're doomed to an eternity of torture for believing in a non-existant being or force.

I also don't just see the judgemental and hateful attitude between Christains and Atheists, I see it between Christians of different faiths. What really amazes me is that most Christians' beliefs derive from the same book, and yet they hate each other.

The crucial difference between my beliefs turning out to be false and yours turning out to be false, is that if mine are false...then nothing happens.

The way I see it, we're both in the same boat. Neither of us have any clue what happens after death. I merely believe I'll find out what happens after I die, and you believe that you're going to heaven (at least that is my assumption at the moment). At this time, we're both on planet earth. How we spend it is up to each one of us.

I assumed that you don't believe in God or the Bible.

That is correct, but that has nothing to do with me knowingly risking anything. I consider what I'm doing risk-free because I don't have the belief that God *could* exist. How you view me and how I view myself are two completely different things.

Welcome to exactly what I believe God and The Bible are. Mythology which helps people get some direction and balance into their lives.

This is a very interesting point. What I've repeatedly seen is a lot people who convert to religion and leave behind their wrongful ways. If you dig a little deeper, you'll see these people use religion as a sort of "mommy" to control and suppress their "harmful desires" while the real problem is that they have no self-control. You'll see people in prison, wife-beaters, murderers, and child-molesters suddenly devote their lives to serving Jesus.

Don't worry Deus, I know not all Christains are like that :)

[Deus ex Pianoforte]

Welcome to exactly what I believe God and The Bible are.

Okay, that's your perogative. If you really think you are being a logical and sensible individual by putting "Twas the Night Before Christmas" and the best selling Book of all time on the same level then you're free to do so. However, I reserve the right to believe that you are not a clear-thinking individual.

Mythology which helps people get some direction and balance into their lives.

So you are advocating atheism because...? I fail to see the harm of "direction and balance". I dunno, maybe you can clear that up for me.




You get electricity? 40% of energy is derived from coal burning plants.

You take the bus? Bus still pollutes the environment.

You eat food sprayed with pesticides? You're supporting big pharma and helping to poison people and ecosystems worldwide. Yes, most pesticides are bad.

I said I was a Christian, not a treehugger.

Pay for TV? You're supporting immorality and sinning. What do you think TV is? A good pasttime?

The only real TV I watch is the news, and the Discovery Channel. Both help me learn more about the world around us and our environment, and consequently help me debate my positions more effectively on SoSuave. :p I can't count how many times I've been able to destroy the far-left on here simply by stating facts that they never would have known, since they were too busy on Osama bin Laden's campaign trail. 'Sides. I fail to see how watching TV equates to blasphemy.

[Kwello]

I don't advocate Atheism and I don't advocate religion either. I simply use ALL of this ancient literature as guidance. Just because I believe none of the stories ever happened and aren't even remotely real, doesn't mean I can't absorb the moral of the story regardless of that fact.

Roman mythology has many lessons and morals which are worth reading. Christian mythology is the same. Judaism, Buddhism, Shintoism, Islam, they ALL have a weath of accumulated knowledge. I read it all as a fiction novel, but I still read it.

[mahon83050]

Wow... even I know that Protestant is not relying on Kid touching Popes to interpret and pass on the message of god but reading the bible on your own and finding your own meaning or watever from the bible. Protestants don't go to church on sundays because they can just follow the bible. I thought catholics were born sinners too and was "baptised" to clean the sins. In the end, who cares since GOD is suppose to FORGIVE you for ALL YOUR SINS if you apologize so it really doesn't matter if your an atheist, protestant or catholic.


That is quite the ignorant comment. They are saying attendance at Roman Catholic Churches are down (including mine) and I think it may have to with the sex abuse scandals. Please remember, this is only coming from a VERY FEW bad apples. 99% of priests aren't out sexually assaulting little kids, ESPECIALLY THE POPE! I was an altar boy and never had anything happen to me nor my friends. Please don't lambast the whole relgion because of a few isolated incidents of priests molesting altar boys or other little kids.

[CCKazi007]

That is quite the ignorant comment. They are saying attendance at Roman Catholic Churches are down (including mine) and I think it may have to with the sex abuse scandals. Please remember, this is only coming from a VERY FEW bad apples. 99% of priests aren't out sexually assaulting little kids, ESPECIALLY THE POPE! I was an altar boy and never had anything happen to me nor my friends. Please don't lambast the whole relgion because of a few isolated incidents of priests molesting altar boys or other little kids.

LOL LOL LOL :whistle: I'm pretty sure that new German pope is a pimp! Goin through 3 alter boys a... hour! You obviously missed all the sarcasm and that I really don't give a damn. How are you so sure that none of your friends were reared? Maybe they're shy and don't want any of your other friends to find out, like in PRIMAL FEAR with Edward Norton, all those memories came back when he was in his mid 30s. There's a million better reasons not to be a catholic, but I gotta say Catholic school girls are HOOOOOOT!

[Deus ex Pianoforte]

There's a million better reasons not to be a catholic, but I gotta say Catholic school girls are HOOOOOOT!

You don't actually expect to be taken seriously after saying stuff like this, do you?

I responded to your previous rant on the last page, btw.

[CCKazi007]

That's not how it works. This is a very basic aspect of Christianity. Everyone is born a sinner, and must repent and accept Jesus Christ as their savior BEFORE death. If you live a life of debauchery, then apologize when you find out you're gonna burn, it ain't gonna save you. ;)

How do you even know that heaven exists? and it's better than hell? What if it was the opposite?

If it's the opposite, then everything else in the Bible is invalidated so that question is academic.

So ya religion is BS no proof of God existing, the chance of him existing is about the same as Santa or the Easter bunny existing...

Ludicrous. It is well-known that "Santa" and the Easter bunny are fictional characters designed for children. The VAST majority of the world, however, believes in a supreme being. As I just explained to Desdinova, the consequences of your belief system turning out to be false versus mine turning out to be false is much more grave. We're talking a miscalculation of epic proportions on your part, here.

But, hey go ahead you can spend your time praying and wasting your time, I would prefer praying once I'm dead since I'll have ultimate time in heaven or hell.

Then by all means. Enjoy Hell.

Why Jesus and not God? God is suppose to be Jesus' dad right? Shouldn't you respect the elders and worship God instead of Jesus who was an extention of god? What makes the Bible better or truthful than the other religious books? All of them were written 2000 years ago by a bunch of priests.

Your logic is flawed just because there's a bunch of people believing in one thing, doesn't mean it's true, like back when MOST people thought the EARTH WAS FLAT. It's not true now is it? There's no proof or EVIDENCE supporting the bible why would one believe in it? So you see god is the same level with santa, you can't disprove or prove his existance because there's no evidence. You believe that god exists, just because it's written in the bible. Meaning that everything in the bible MUST BE TRUE.

Who wrote the bible anyways, did jesus write EVERYTHING himself? Or did pope and other priests pick and chose various myths? Of course the priests and pope took bits and pieces that THEY WANTED in there to BENEFIT THEM. Since humans are all born sinners, they gotta be corrupt right? So what happens if the priests and popes that put the bible together was corrupt and manipulated everything? What if they added their own pedophile stuff in there. Science is better than religion, everything in science is backed by evidence. It's just a matter of time before science finds explanations for everything and christianity becomes a pagan religion.

"The only differance between a cult and relgion is the NUMBER of people FOLLOWING it." Richard Dawkins

[Deus ex Pianoforte]

Why Jesus and not God? God is suppose to be Jesus' dad right?

One and the same, man. It's called the Holy Trinity after you add the Holy Ghost.

What makes the Bible better or truthful than the other religious books? All of them were written 2000 years ago by a bunch of priests.

Heh. The Torah was written 3,000 years ago while the Koran was written the late 7th century. And nobody said the Bible was "better".

There's no proof or EVIDENCE supporting the bible why would one believe in it?

You're only half right. There's no proof, but there's plenty of overwhelming evidence supporting the Bible. But it's the same reason you DON'T believe in the Bible despite no proof that there's no God. Faith.

So you see god is the same level with santa, you can't disprove or prove his existance because there's no evidence.

Uh, if you're talking about Saint Nicholas, he was a very real person. Lived in the 4th century. As for the guy that brings children gifts on Christmas Eve, you're probably thinking of "Santa Claus - n. The personification of the spirit of Christmas, usually represented as a jolly fat old man with a white beard and a red suit, who brings gifts to good children on Christmas Eve."

You believe that god exists, just because it's written in the bible.

If you think that's why Christianity lives on, then you have a lot left to learn.

Who wrote the bible anyways, did jesus write EVERYTHING himself?

No. They're called "apostles". Thanks for actually asking this time though instead of just assuming.

So what happens if the priests and popes that put the bible together was corrupt and manipulated everything?

Then you and I both die and nobody goes to Hell. However, if I am right, then you spent the rest of eternity in unimaginable suffering.

It's just a matter of time before science finds explanations for everything and christianity becomes a pagan religion.

Actually, by definition Christianity can never be defined as "pagan".

"The only differance between a cult and relgion is the NUMBER of people FOLLOWING it." Richard Dawkins

"The only difference between atheists and Christians is which direction we sway our faith toward." - Deus ex Pianoforte

[Nighthawk]

People who believe in Hell are retarded.

[CCKazi007]

Ok how about this?

Can God create a stone so heavy that he cannot lift it? Either he can or he can’t.

If he can’t, then there is something that he cannot do, namely create the stone, and therefore he is not omnipotent.

If he can, then there is also something that he cannot do, namely lift the stone, and therefore he is not omnipotent.

Either way, then, God is not omnipotent.

[Deus ex Pianoforte]

Either way, then, God is not omnipotent.

Now see, THAT'S a good argument.

Even though it has nothing to do with atheists betting their afterlife on their viewpoint being correct, it definitely made me think. Although, saying that God is no longer omnipotent because he can't take a power AWAY from himself is somewhat of a cop out. You could probably do better.

People who believe in Hell are retarded.

People that don't believe in Hell are super-duper retarded! I win. Go back to the sandbox.

[Nighthawk]

People that don't believe in Hell are super-duper retarded! I win

No you don't, because people who believe in Hell are retarded.

[CCKazi007]

Now see, THAT'S a good argument.

Even though it has nothing to do with atheists betting their afterlife on their viewpoint being correct, it definitely made me think. Although, saying that God is no longer omnipotent because he can't take a power AWAY from himself is somewhat of a cop out. You could probably do better.


Ok let's just say god was omnipotent, if he has the power to relieve suffering for all christians, why wouldn't he do it? What's the point for people to die and then go to heaven? If he really did exist, why wouldn't he come down from heaven and end the debate, religious conflicts will be solved. If he did come down, I'm pretty sure eveyone would convert to Christianity. So why doesn't HE DO IT? If he did have the power to create the world, including humans why did he make so many faulty beings? If he actually made humans shouldn't you expect him to make everyone perfect? If god created the universe... who created god? Did he just appear from thin air. If that's possible then why can't the matter that exploded from the big bang be created from thin air?

[Deus ex Pianoforte]

No you don't, because people who believe in Hell are retarded.

NO U R RETARTID AN U SMEL 2

[Deus ex Pianoforte]

Ok let's just say god was omnipotent, if he has the power to relieve suffering for all christians, why wouldn't he do it?

Well, and I'm speaking from the perspective of a devout Christian here, Adam and Eve were living in Utopia: the Garden of Eden. They sinned, and were thus expelled from the Garden. They f'd it up for everybody else, and we are all born sinners. We must endure a life of pain, misery, and suffering as a result. So now the only way for us to enter the Kingdom of Heaven is to repent our sins, and accept Jesus Christ into our hearts as our Savior.

If god created the universe... who created god? Did he just appear from thin air. If that's possible then why can't the matter that exploded from the big bang be created from thin air?

Those are a few of life's eternal questions that will not be answered until either A) you die, or B) the Second Coming.

[CCKazi007]

Well, and I'm speaking from the perspective of a devout Christian here, Adam and Eve were living in Utopia: the Garden of Eden. They sinned, and were thus expelled from the Garden. They f'd it up for everybody else, and we are all born sinners. We must endure a life of pain, misery, and suffering as a result. So now the only way for us to enter the Kingdom of Heaven is to repent our sins, and accept Jesus Christ into our hearts as our Savior.

If god created the universe... who created god? Did he just appear from thin air. If that's possible then why can't the matter that exploded from the big bang be created from thin air?

Those are a few of life's eternal questions that will not be answered until either A) you die, or B) the Second Coming.

Wow, you really believe in "Adam and Eve" that means you also believe that everyone are inbreds. You still havent' answered the Stone quetion or the other quetion if God was so perfect why he didn't create humans so they didn't sin. But I guess God has differant moral codes since he tolerates incest, starvation and murder for sacrifice. I got another quetion if god was so perfect and divine why did Lucifer betray him? Also shouldn't have god known and could've prevented the war between the angles if he knew Lucifer was going to betray him?

[Call_Me_Daddy]

If we're all inbreds... isn't that one of the major sins?

[Call_Me_Daddy]

Q: Can god make a burrito so hot that he himself cannot eat?

A: Since he is God and incredibly powerful, the burrito must be SO HOT that it has an infinite temperature.

And if it has an infinite temperature that is immeasurable, then the burrito must have a perfect temperature. Just like God is infinitely powerful (which is why he is God), the Burrito is infinitely hot.

And if the Burrito is infinitely hot, it is therefore infinitely powerful.


Therefore God is a Burrito.

[Deus ex Pianoforte]

Wow, you really believe in "Adam and Eve" that means you also believe that everyone are inbreds.

First of all, I didn't say that I take everything in the Bible literally. I said that I was speaking from the PERSPECTIVE of a devout Christian. I can see how that could be misinterpreted through text. And ironically enough, I just watched a special on the Discovery Channel detailing the research and DNA analyses made by scientists that does in fact prove that we descended from a single man. Although this is some caveman that lived in Africa, so he's more of a theoretical Adam.

You still havent' answered the Stone quetion

There is no answer to that question. Trying to wrap your brain around loopholes concerning religion undermines faith. I'll let you know after I die, though if I can communicate from the other side. ;)


or the other quetion if God was so perfect why he didn't create humans so they didn't sin.

I already told you that. All humans are sinners because of Adam and Eve's screw up. Humans must now have faith to get past the Pearly Gates. We have the gift of free will, which means we can choose our actions, and thus our fate in the afterlife.

I got another quetion if god was so perfect and divine why did Lucifer betray him?

Envy and greed.

Also shouldn't have god known and could've prevented the war between the angles if he knew Lucifer was going to betray him?

Again, I'm no theology major but you can probably chalk this one up to the gift of free will as well.


I'm growing weary of teaching you the basics of Christianity, man. Go do your research, then come back to me with your pro-atheistic rhetoric.

[Deus ex Pianoforte]

Therefore God is a Burrito.

:yawn:

[CCKazi007]

lol only reason I'm being an assh*le is I'm stuck at home cuz I'm semi grounded. I don't play games cuz it's a waste of time so I prefer debating with a total stranger. I'm actually a protestant and think that God did exist and Jesus actually was trying to teach sh*t, but corrupt people like the ROMANS already had religion so they manipulated the truth and killed him before he got the chance. It's always good to be christian, I want to keep my options open if I want to start a career in politics. Get 70% of the votes for being christian!

[Deus ex Pianoforte]

Haha, ok man. :p

[CCKazi007]

Haha, ok man. :p

No I was just kidding. I like a little bit of everything so I came up with my own.

[Da Realist]

Guess I'll answer the original question instead of debating religion since people will believe whatever they want to. Turning the other cheekn't about letting someoe running all over you; it's the fact that you refuse to let yourself repay one evil deed for another. Sure this guy said something or did something, but let him be the person in the wrong by not lower yourself to what he did. You can defend yourself in an acceptable manner, but you don't cross the line and do something out of revenge.

[Nighthawk]

Envy and greed.


I'm growing weary of teaching you the basics of Christianity, man. Go do your research, then come back to me with your pro-atheistic rhetoric.

Quote me the part of The Bible about Lucifer the Angel betraying God out of 'envy and greed' and being cast down to Hell.

You can't, because it's not in The Bible, that was all invented in Paradise Lost by John Milton.

Teach us more oh Bible expert.

[Call_Me_Daddy]

Teach us more oh Bible expert.

Better yet... quote the original ancient Hebrew scriptures. On which the bible was based on.

Was it not translated form the Ancient Hebrew (which only 3 out of 4 words are known) to Latin and then to English?

[Deus ex Pianoforte]

Quote me the part of The Bible about Lucifer the Angel betraying God out of 'envy and greed' and being cast down to Hell.

Directly from bible.org:

IV. The Fall of Satan

Key Passages – Ezekiel 28; Isaiah 14

A. Ezekiel 28:11-19 is a prophetic lamentation over the “King of Tyre” who is described in language that fits Satan’s fall and not a mere human king. Satan is distinguished form the human ruler of Tyre in 28:2 (“prince/ruler”) and called a “king” in 28:12 (Not even Israel’s rulers were called “King”). Though Tyre had a human “ruler”, Satan was the real “King” behind that wicked kingdom.

...

3. His judgment –

a. Cast out of the mountain of God (v.16, cf. Rev12:4)

b. Cast to the ground (v.17)

c. Consumed by fire (v.18, cf. Rev.20:10)

D. Isaiah 14:12-15 also seems to describe Satan’s fall. Satan is manifest here by the king of Babylon. As in Ezekiel 28, Satan is pictured here as the real “king” behind the wicked human kingdom of Babylon.

1. The imagery of a “star” and “falling from heaven” (v.12) suggests a supernatural fulfillment. “Stars” (v.12,13) are symbolic of the angelic realm elsewhere (Job 38:6,7; Rev.12:4).

2. The five “I will’s” of vss. 13 & 14 are literally true of Satan and only metaphorically true of Babylon’s king. This ultimate form of pride (“I will be like the Most High” – v.14) fits the New Testament description of Satan’s fall 1 Tim.3:6.

You can't

I just did.

that was all invented in Paradise Lost by John Milton.

:crackup:

Teach us more oh Bible expert.

As I said before, I'm no theologian...but I'll do my best to help you with any further questions you may have.

[Nighthawk]

I just did.


But you didn't. Those passages aren't about an angel called Lucifer who was envious and greedy and was cast out of Heaven. They are about real life human Kings or rulers. Other supposed examples of Satan in The Bible, namely tempting Adam & Eve (just a talking serpent in the original - tell me was this before or after he got chucked out of Heaven?), tormenting Job, and tempting Jesus in the wilderness are other examples of the church wilfully misleading its followers about what was in The Bible by conflating several Biblical references to the Jews enemies or adversaries (what 'Satan' actually means) into one super-baddie to scare the new Christians with.

Actually what they were doing was turning Christianity into a manichistic religion, with Good and Evil fighting for power. This sold well to new Christian recruits, but was in fact contrary to Christianity and Judaism which were about one all-powerful deity. Dante's Inferno fleshed out the idea of Hell, another thing barely if at all described in The Bible itself.

If I asked you to prove The Bible talked about Adam & Eve, Noah and his ark, The nephilim, the Ten Commandments, you could quote whole sections easily, with no need for extensive "This is code for X, what this actually means is..." explanations.

But when it comes to 'The Devil/Satan' being an ex-angel called Lucifer ruling in 'Hell' made up of sinners who failed to get into Heaven - one of the cornerstones of how Christianity has been sold and understood by its followers for centuries - you cannot find a clear Biblical version of these events and ideas because they are not in there.

[Kwello]

Right, because the Bible and the Hebrew culture are very inter-related. I'm Jewish and we have no concept of hell, there's no such thing to us.

The Bible, as Nighthawk said also doesn't communicate anything clear about hell or anything resembling it. Most of our modern visualization of hell is courtesy of Dante's Inferno... in fact your whole little speech about the tortures you're so sure I'll endure in hell seems to be ripped right from the pages of this FICTIONAL work.

That's your problem Deus. You've lost track of fiction and reality. That's the same problem with all religious fanatics and is the reason most wars and genocides occur.

[Call_Me_Daddy]

That's the same problem with all religious fanatics and is the reason most wars and genocides occur.

I agree.

The Bible is a fantastic work of fiction and lessons to learn, but nothing more.

[Francisco d'Anconia]

The Bible is a fantastic work of fiction and lessons to learn, but nothing more.

True, true.

But how often is it used as a step by step manual for just existing?

[Deus ex Pianoforte]

But you didn't. Those passages aren't about an angel called Lucifer who was envious and greedy and was cast out of Heaven. They are about real life human Kings or rulers. Other supposed examples of Satan in The Bible, namely tempting Adam & Eve (just a talking serpent in the original...

Oh, you don't accept Bible symbolism. This makes perfect sense. You're contesting that Satan did NOT take the form of a serpent in the Garden of Eden? That explains a lot, and I'll tell you...you have your work cut out for you. You're free to believe whatever you want; I think there's a couple of philosophers out there somewhere that agree with you. I personally take the stance that the serpent was the Devil, however. Especially after taking these compelling passages into account:

Revelation 12:9:"And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world."

Revelation 20:2:"He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil, or Satan, and bound him for a thousand years."

This sold well to new Christian recruits, but was in fact contrary to Christianity and Judaism which were about one all-powerful deity. Dante's Inferno fleshed out the idea of Hell, another thing barely if at all described in The Bible itself.

Unfortunately, your Da Vinci Code-esque conspiracy theory is completely unfounded. There are numerous allusions to Hell in the Bible. See for yourself:

Matthew 13:50 “furnace of fire…weeping and gnashing of teeth”
Mark 9:48 “where their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched”
Revelation 14:10 “he will be tormented with fire and brimstone”
Revelation 14:11 “the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever and they have no rest day and night”
Revelation 20:14 “This is the second death, the lake of fire”
Revelation 20:15 “If anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire”

But when it comes to 'The Devil/Satan' being an ex-angel called Lucifer ruling in 'Hell' made up of sinners who failed to get into Heaven - one of the cornerstones of how Christianity has been sold and understood by its followers for centuries - you cannot find a clear Biblical version of these events and ideas because they are not in there.

You don't get any clearer than this. This is crystal clear. The next step would be, "Satan's pride got the best of him and he fell from Heaven."

Isaiah 14:12-14:

12 How you have fallen from heaven,
O morning star, son of the dawn!
You have been cast down to the earth,
you who once laid low the nations!

13 You said in your heart,
"I will ascend to heaven;
I will raise my throne
above the stars of God;
I will sit enthroned on the mount of assembly,
on the utmost heights of the sacred mountain.

14 I will ascend above the tops of the clouds;
I will make myself like the Most High."

[Call_Me_Daddy]

But how often is it used as a step by step manual for just existing?

I've read better manuals.

[Deus ex Pianoforte]

The Bible, as Nighthawk said also doesn't communicate anything clear about hell or anything resembling it.

See above.

Most of our modern visualization of hell is courtesy of Dante's Inferno... in fact your whole little speech about the tortures you're so sure I'll endure in hell seems to be ripped right from the pages of this FICTIONAL work.

Thank you for the compliment, as I've always admired Dante. However, I've never declared that I'm sure you'll endure Hell. I simply suggested that if you're beliefs turn out to be wrong, and mine turn out to be right...then you will burn.

That's your problem Deus. You've lost track of fiction and reality.

Where? The reality is that nobody knows what's going to happen when we die. The reality is that both of us are younger than 2,000 years old so neither of us can say for sure if everything that is written in the Book is fact or symbolism. All we have to go on is evidence that today's scientists and archaelogists have uncovered. I fail to see where I've blurred the lines.

That's the same problem with all religious fanatics and is the reason most wars and genocides occur.

I'm not a religious fanatic. That's a label atheists use for Christians to make themselves feel better about having no God. No comment on the war/genocide remark.

[Gangster Of Love]

People who negates the existence of a God are as stupid as those who accept it.

Mendiga rata asquerosa! When People's negates the existences.

[Nighthawk]

This is your best effort?



You don't get (you can't find anything) any clearer than this. This is crystal clear. [No, it's a vague metaphor at best] The next step would be, "Satan's pride got the best of him and he fell from Heaven."
(Can't do it without that 'next step' can you?)

Isaiah 14:12-14:

12 How you have fallen from heaven,
O morning star, son of the dawn!
You have been cast down to the earth,
you who once laid low the nations!

13 You said in your heart,
"I will ascend to heaven;
I will raise my throne
above the stars of God;
I will sit enthroned on the mount of assembly,
on the utmost heights of the sacred mountain.

14 I will ascend above the tops of the clouds;
I will make myself like the Most High."

If you have been led to believe that the fallen angel Paradise Lost story is Biblical canon, then you can make the pieces fit. Or it could be about some Jew-oppressing human (as other parts of Isaiah suggest http://www.wrestedscriptures.com/b07satan/isaiah14v12-14.html), or Anakin Skywalker or whatever.

All you have done is prove my point, that in the whole of The Bible there is not one passage to back up your erroneous but common view of Lucifer The Ex-Angel Being Banished From Heaven And Ruling Hell.

And even if it was in The Bible it would still be RETARDED.

[Deus ex Pianoforte]

Doubled.

[Deus ex Pianoforte]

This is your best effort?

Proof? Yeah. Can't do any better than direct quotes from the Bible, really.

If you have been led to believe that the fallen angel Paradise Lost story is Biblical canon, then you can make the pieces fit.

Never read it. You, however, apparently are very enamored with Milton's work.

http://www.wrestedscriptures.com/b07...14v12-14.html

Dead link.

All you have done is prove my point...

Your view is that there is nothing in the Bible about the Devil being banished from Heaven. My view is that there is. I quoted this passage for you:

How you have fallen from heaven,
O morning star, son of the dawn!
You have been cast down to the earth,
you who once laid low the nations!

And you think that PROVES your point. Do people wear their underwear on the outside of their pants in your world? Do hamburgers eat people there, too?

your erroneous but common view of Lucifer The Ex-Angel Being Banished From Heaven And Ruling Hell.

Ah, that's part of the reason you ended up so confused. I never said that I believed Lucifer ruled Hell. Since he was cast into the lake of fire, he would be enduring eternal torment. Not exactly a position to rule.

And even if it was in The Bible it would still be RETARDED.

Only making it easier for me. :)


By the way, what happened to your arguments about the serpent and mentions of Hell in the Bible? You kinda got quiet after I posted that laundry list of direct quotes.

[Francisco d'Anconia]

I've read better manuals.

The Kama Sutra was an interesting read. :p

[Francisco d'Anconia]

I applaud everyone who have been able to keep this thread (surprisingly) civil in that it hasn't been locked as of yet (surprisingly). :up:

[Deus ex Pianoforte]

Yeah. Thank God for that!

[absolut honesty]

Yeah. Thank God for that!


i noticed your signature.........

so on a seduction site called sosuave.com, talking about looks is not allowed, but talking about religion like this IS allowed??

what the hell?!?!?!